Rope Etiquette

[Stevie]

I have a general question about what to do if you find a pitch rigged when you get there (freshly rigged - not an in-situ rope).
This hasn't happened to me yet but I'm guessing just a matter of time.

I would assume another group had an earlier breakfast and are now exploring somewhere below. My planning went as far as 'nice one, saved me the effort' and would slide off down their gear. A friend pointed out this was all well and good but if they ascended first I'd be knackered. My initial (scant) plan was just to leave my rope at the pitch head for them to rig he pitch if they got there first.

Same thoughtful friend pointed out many problems with this plan; ie. would they just walk past the rope ;would they know what I intended; they couldn't rig if the pitch had deviations, leave a rope at every pitch head... etc, etc, etc.

So what is the understood etiquette? Should I rig over their gear (or is this bad manners too). Leave and head somewhere else (not keen having got this far).

Hoping someone can pass on the benefit of their experience.
Thanks

 

[langcliffe]

If possible, find another route. Failing that, rig underneath.

 

[IanWalker]

First preference might be to find another pothole that doesn't have a group in. Not too hard these days

If you really want to double up, you can rig beneath their ropes, so it doesn't hamper their de-rig too much

With ladders you can rig but leave it coiled at pitch head - other group hopefully know to lower your ladder when derigging theirs

 

[FabianE]

I rig underneath people's gear (if space permits) and continue my trip.
I've had it in Bar Pot, GG system where we descended and on our return attached our bags to the rope and exited via Small Mammal with a view of just pulling the rope up...
Once getting to Bar Pot I wasn't able to pull the rope as a group of cavers started ascending and were "thanking us" for pre-rigging their pitch.
If I would've been 10mins earlier I would've de-rigged without knowing they were in there...

 

[Pitlamp]

Get up earlier?

 

[Steve Clark]

If it’s a single pitch to access a multiple route system (eg Lancaster Hole) then it seems reasonable to rig under or to use a slightly different combination of bolts. Lancaster also has a booking system so you can can get an idea of people likely to be using it.

Big pots with multiple routes (eg Rowten or marble steps, no permits) may be possible to rig an entirely different route. Needs some thought about rope packing / re-packing / combinations.

Many pots are just not suitable for two teams at once.

To me, the whole thing is a balance between the freedom to largely just go caving wherever and whenever you want and some involved/efficient system of booking caves to avoid any clashes at all. The current balance in the Dales works well I think.

 

[Babyhagrid]

Get up earlier?

But then you bump into the older cavers who get up early 😂. Adults go caving before 12 and students go caving after 12

 

[Stevie]

Get up earlier?

All my worrying about it and such a simple solution 🤦🏻‍♂️

 

[Tim Pickering]

I rig underneath people's gear (if space permits) and continue my trip.
I've had it in Bar Pot, GG system where we descended and on our return attached our bags to the rope and exited via Small Mammal with a view of just pulling the rope up...
Once getting to Bar Pot I wasn't able to pull the rope as a group of cavers started ascending and were "thanking us" for pre-rigging their pitch.
If I would've been 10mins earlier I would've de-rigged without knowing they were in there...

At the risk of poking a hornets nest, this example ties in nicely with the discussion on in situ ropes sparked by the County Pot thread. It's that shift in thinking from 'oh, a rope! There must be people already down there' to 'oh, a rope! Great. It's been pre-rigged. That saves a bit of time'.

 

[FabianE]

At the risk of poking a hornets nest, this example ties in nicely with the discussion on in situ ropes sparked by the County Pot thread. It's that shift in thinking from 'oh, a rope! There must be people already down there' to 'oh, a rope! Great. It's been pre-rigged. That saves a bit of time'.

That's true!
Luckily it's sometimes widely known which is an in situ rope and which isn't... I.e. it's fixed for that pitch.

I sometimes also have an idea of who has left a rope in situ for digging and after seeking permission use their rope.

A random rope though which I don't expect I won't use... I'll rig underneath.

 

[afraidofthedank]

Nice! Free rope right here! 😂

Depending on how well it’s rigged probably leave my rope there and use theirs, I guess it would depend on a lot of factors. Some venues allow for a second rig, and a second group quite well, some don’t.

 

[paul]

What if the pitch the rigged rope is on has rebelays or deviations, traverse, etc or the pitch is de-rigged on your return? As far as I know there is still a tradition of leaving ladders at the top of already rigged ladder pitches for another party to replace their ladder with when de-rigging, but not for SRT for the reasons already mentioned. Just follow the advice already given: go to another cave, choose a different pitch if there is one or just rig your rope beneath.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

If you do double rig the same pitch (or find someone else has) be really careful about pulling your rope up to de-rig and not getting them twisted around each other. A while ago one of the posters here showed me a rope which was half cut through - not exaggerating, the damage was substantial. He discovered that as he ascended his. Given the damage was 2/3rds? the way up a ~80m free hanging pitch it must have caused some concern as he couldn't have known if there was anything else above or what was going on.

I was puzzled (actually horrified!) it could've been done by someone and left like that, but I now suspect it was damage caused by another party hauling up their rope (around his) and the other party would've been unaware, theirs wouldn't have been damaged.

The message is that you needed to be really careful not to accidentally damage the other team's rope, you might not even know if you had done that.

 

[Elif-O]

If you do double rig the same pitch (or find someone else has) be really careful about pulling your rope up to de-rig and not getting them twisted around each other. A while ago one of the posters here showed me a rope which was half cut through - not exaggerating, the damage was substantial. He discovered that as he ascended his. Given the damage was 2/3rds? the way up a ~80m free hanging pitch it must have caused some concern as he couldn't have known if there was anything else above or what was going on.

I was puzzled (actually horrified!) it could've been done by someone and left like that, but I now suspect it was damage caused by another party hauling up their rope (around his) and the other party would've been unaware, theirs wouldn't have been damaged.

The message is that you needed to be really careful not to accidentally damage the other team's rope, you might not even know if you had done that.

An incident occured a few years ago where we rigged our rope underneath another parties at Titan on the first 50m pitch. They were digging in the upper section. When we turned around to ascend we found our rope was 20m or so out of reach. When the other party pulled their rope up, ours got caught.

We had to wait for rescue haha!

So just another thing to bear in mind if you do find another parties rope. I suppose it can be difficult to see if the other parties rope touches the bottom at a long pitch.