Mike Hopley
New member
cavermark said:
I think you meant FF 0.3.
Otherwise correct!
Rope for Long Ascent
- Thread starter zaphod79
- Start date
I think you meant FF 0.3.
Otherwise correct!
Penguin
New member
There are some rigging situations, particularly with traverses, where the rigger and de-rigger can be exposed to a fall, not through anchor failure but simply slipping. I imagine the FF would be less than 1 but having a bit of stretch in the rope is reassuring, particularly where the anchors may not be the best.. : in such a scenario the de-rigger is probably on their jammers.
in such a scenario the de-rigger is probably on their jammers.Naw we have plenty of long traverses. It's kinda a missnomer that we "never/rarely" rig like ya'all do - we do when the caves demand it. We are less arsed to do rebelays and deviations to keep the rope off the rock, we use rope with amazing sheeths on them that take the abrassion fine instead, or we use rope pads when we can. We use bolts for rigging, have traverses, rebelays, etc but we do try to rig to avoid requiring such things and we are less picky about rope touching rock.cavermark said:
Lucky for us, the unique geology of TAG lends itself beautifully to deep huge holes in the ground so usually (as we are less picky since our sheaths take abrassion fine) it requires some padding on the lip, and that's about it. And that's what we're "famous" for having so that's kinda what ya see.
Ex of "classic tag"
Natural Well_0094 by Sunguramy [Amy Hinkle], on Flickr
Mystery Falls, very popular in cave...we use bolts!
But we'll just throw a rope pad for where it touches the rock near the rig.
Neversink, rig point 1, takes 2 rope pads but is rigged to bolts.
Neversink from the Back by Sunguramy [Amy Hinkle], on Flickr
Neversink, rig point 2, rigged to bolts but requires no pads (dirt/leaves who cares
)
On Rappel by Sunguramy [Amy Hinkle], on Flickr
We also love using (what we call) redirects to keep it off the rock the whole way down...
Stephen's Gap007 by Sunguramy [Amy Hinkle], on Flickr
And not-what-you-think-of with TAG....
40-ft long winding crawling traverses around a 430ft drop-off...
Main drop (other side wall on the bolts) and traverse and approach lines being rigged...
And now that I have enough of a wetsuit setup I'll be getting into "horror holes" aka wet knarly technical shit.
which we do have plenty of around here. Just....when folks visit TAG we take them to classic TAG....and that's kinda all peeps see, and all you have to see if you don't want to get knarly and technical.
Mike Hopley
New member
damian said:
Thank you!
Good point. Type A ropes are 100Kg and Type B ropes are 80Kg. The latest FFS Manual makes no mention of the load, despite defining it for Types A and B ropes and Alpine Caving Techniques also makes no mention of it. Odd. I'll see what I can find via google.cavermark said:
Just read the original FFS standard document. It is also not as clear as it should be on the first page, but says "see Type B" in the relevant box in the summary table, so we can conclude it's a FF0.3 with 80Kg giving 6Kn or less.damian said:
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
For what it is worth extracts from the relevant BSs whcih I hold (thanks to local library).
BS 564:2006
primary specs for - diameter (4, 5, 6, 7 & 8mm)
- minimum tensile strength 3.2 to 12.8kN depending upon diameter.
So 8.5mm can't be accessory cord under standard.
BS EN 892:2004
for single rope primary specs
- static elongation not exceed 10% done on 1.5m long, load sample at 5kg marks 1m apart, load at 80kg and measure extension.
- dynamic elongation not exceed 40% during first drop of set up viz
bollard securing rope up to a 10mm thick orifice plate rope length 300mm (simulates crab), rope length beyond to 80kg mass load 2.5m, then raised 2.3m above orifice plate and then dropped.
- peak force in rope during first drop not exceed 12kN in same drop set up
- sample shall withstand 5 drops of same drop set up.
So all drops are done at FF 1.92
BS EN 1891:1998
primary specs are - rope diameter 8.5 to 16mm
- elongation not exceed 5% using 3m sample loaded at 50kg marks 1m apart, load extra 100kg leave 5 minutes then measure extension.
- peak force not exceed 6kN on first drop test
- sample shall withstand 5 drops subsequent.
drop testing using 100kg for Type A and 80kg for Type B 2.0m under load, first drop raise mass 0.6m (ie FF 0.3) and drop. Subsequent drops mass raised to attachment height (ie FF 1.0)
- static strength without terminations sustain a force of at least 22kN Type A / 18kN for Type B when tested in accord with BS EN 919:1995 (extension rate between 36 and 60mm / minute)
- with terminations, sustain a force of 22kN Type A / 18kN for Type B for 3 minutes tested with sample length 0.3m between fig 8 knots or one of supplied termination
If my Google translation of Damian's reference is to be believed then Type L only requires
- Static strength without knots : 16 kN minimum
- Static resistance with figure 8 knot: 11 kN minimum
- Dynamic Performance: 2 drops under 80 kg
(rope test different impact force factor 0.3) - but unsure what this means, I suspect implies don't use first fall of FF 0.3, but just use FF 1.0 so implies must withstand 2 FF 1.0 drops
- Elongation: 7% max
Appears to omit reference to any maximum peak force requirement.
BS 564:2006
primary specs for - diameter (4, 5, 6, 7 & 8mm)
- minimum tensile strength 3.2 to 12.8kN depending upon diameter.
So 8.5mm can't be accessory cord under standard.
BS EN 892:2004
for single rope primary specs
- static elongation not exceed 10% done on 1.5m long, load sample at 5kg marks 1m apart, load at 80kg and measure extension.
- dynamic elongation not exceed 40% during first drop of set up viz
bollard securing rope up to a 10mm thick orifice plate rope length 300mm (simulates crab), rope length beyond to 80kg mass load 2.5m, then raised 2.3m above orifice plate and then dropped.
- peak force in rope during first drop not exceed 12kN in same drop set up
- sample shall withstand 5 drops of same drop set up.
So all drops are done at FF 1.92
BS EN 1891:1998
primary specs are - rope diameter 8.5 to 16mm
- elongation not exceed 5% using 3m sample loaded at 50kg marks 1m apart, load extra 100kg leave 5 minutes then measure extension.
- peak force not exceed 6kN on first drop test
- sample shall withstand 5 drops subsequent.
drop testing using 100kg for Type A and 80kg for Type B 2.0m under load, first drop raise mass 0.6m (ie FF 0.3) and drop. Subsequent drops mass raised to attachment height (ie FF 1.0)
- static strength without terminations sustain a force of at least 22kN Type A / 18kN for Type B when tested in accord with BS EN 919:1995 (extension rate between 36 and 60mm / minute)
- with terminations, sustain a force of 22kN Type A / 18kN for Type B for 3 minutes tested with sample length 0.3m between fig 8 knots or one of supplied termination
If my Google translation of Damian's reference is to be believed then Type L only requires
- Static strength without knots : 16 kN minimum
- Static resistance with figure 8 knot: 11 kN minimum
- Dynamic Performance: 2 drops under 80 kg
(rope test different impact force factor 0.3) - but unsure what this means, I suspect implies don't use first fall of FF 0.3, but just use FF 1.0 so implies must withstand 2 FF 1.0 drops
- Elongation: 7% max
Appears to omit reference to any maximum peak force requirement.
Oh I'm sure it will crumble one day. It's part of the old structure that used to be on Natural Well. Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) developed Monte Sano State Park, where Natural Well (among someo ther caves) are in 1933. One of their tasks was to clean out all the debris in the pit that had built up over the years. They were to build an spiral iron staircase down into the cave as well. They errected a shack over the top with a winch system. WWII came along before the staircase was built, the winching system was abandoned and shack borded up, shortly later to catch on fire and fall into the pit. The fencing around it was put up by the Huntsville Grotto in the late 70's (I think late 70's if not early 80's) as there is a hiking trail that goes right by the pit and the park wanted something (we have good repoire with the park) Although you can see how even in the 30-40 years since it's been up the pit is eating away the fence! In 1984 a lady fell to her death and her family actually tried to sue members of our grotto saying they put up the fence because they knew it was dangerous, and they didn't do it right. I have not heard details of how all that was cleaned up but it was a mess to deal with legally. Her boyfriend was with her when she fell. There is a lot of rumors surrounding the entire thing as it was said (but never allowed to be confirmed or checked, iiuc) that she was pregnant so there is heavy suspicion it was not an accident but nothing was ever really investigated or proven.Fulk said:
Ahhhh history! Ok I'm done being off topic now haha!
For the avoidance of doubt Type L is a "standard" defined by the FFS as suitable for use underground by experienced parties following certain specific rules.Bob Mehew said:
The bit in brackets above means that the rope must survive 2 FF1 drops with an 80Kg load, but this is done on a different piece of rope to the one used in the drop test requiring a FF0.3 to return a peak impact force of 6Kn or below. This is in contrast to the standards for Types A and B ropes that apparently require the 2 FF1 drops to take place on the same rope that has just taken the FF0.3 drop. The maximum peak force requirement is not in the section you have spotted, Bob, but in the complete table on the second side. It is here it says it is identical to the Type B rope test. The footnote explains that this is for an 80Kg load for Type B ropes.
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
Thanks to Damian for sight of the information. I think the use of "rules" is a bit misleading. The French standard makes reference to various publications by FFS, EFS (French Caving School) and SSF (French Cave Rescue) on SRT techniques which not unsurprisingly they recommend one should use. These do point to some variations between techniques for use with Type A & B ropes and for Type L ropes. You can either go to the original documents or await Damian's work on the topic.
