Severn barrage

[Dep]

If they build this dam thing, will they have to suck all the mud up from the up-dam side to create more volume.
If they do, that's alot of mud to skirt away!

That is a damn good argument for not doing it...
Silting has caused problems in many hydroelectric dams and is usually the limiting factor in how long it remains viable - dredging and subsequent spoil removal is very expensive.

 

[whitelackington]

First, skwirt all the mud to The Somerset Levels, what with Global Warming and rising sea levels, they could do with some more.
Next rip up all the limestone, that is at present under the Bristol Channel,
some of this could be used for building the barrage, some could go to garden centers for rockeries, any left over we could make some false caves in non-caving areas, something for everyone.
Next, waste all the extra electic the thing produces by people having things like, plug in airfreshners with built in fans, electric toothbrushes, shoe polishers, carving knives, eyebrow pluckers, you get the picture, oh yes, nearly forgot, more digital shopping channels to get us consumers into the mood to buy more electric goods we did not no existed or that we "needed"
Actually it might just be easier for us to go back to the fifties when noone had a tv or any of this stuff!

 

[AndyF]

First, skwirt all the mud to The Somerset Levels, what with Global Warming and rising sea levels, they could do with some more.
Next rip up all the limestone, that is at present under the Bristol Channel,
some of this could be used for building the barrage, some could go to garden centers for rockeries, any left over we could make some false caves in non-caving areas, something for everyone.
Next, waste all the extra electic the thing produces by people having things like, plug in airfreshners with built in fans, electric toothbrushes, shoe polishers, carving knives, eyebrow pluckers, you get the picture, oh yes, nearly forgot, more digital shopping channels to get us consumers into the mood to buy more electric goods we did not no existed or that we "needed"
Actually it might just be easier for us to go back to the fifties when noone had a tv or any of this stuff!

I couldn't have put it better, you just missed the bit where the govt holds a public enquiry first, then ignores the result and gives Capita Business Systems £2 trillion pounds to build it....

 

[MSD]

Reducing energy consumption has to be part of a sensible strategy. In this respect the quality of the housing stock in Britain is absolutely appalling. Go around any housing estate built in the 1970's or earlier, and you will find large numbers of houses with no proper roof or wall insulation, single-glazed windows and horrendously inefficient heating and hot water systems. It was just the same in the office I worked in at the University of Leeds (single glazing, freezing cold draughts from badly fitting sash windows in the winter, poor insulation in the loft conversions, so the rooms on the top floor were absolutely boiling in the summer....). You would think that an organisation run by supposedly intelligent people would be able to do their sums and work out that insulation is a worthwhile investment and actually makes the working environment more pleasant, but these issues just don't seem to have penetrated the conciousness of most decision makers in Britain.

Now, you might think that global warming will make this problem go away (warmer climate = less need for heating). Unfortunately if average temperatures go up much in Britain, the response of many people will be to install air conditioning.....which uses more energy. It will never occur to them that decent insulation, controlled ventilation and heat exchangers could solve the problem without using any net energy at all.

Many houses out in the country here in Sweden are heated either by direct biofuel (wood pellets), which has a zero CO2 loading and is also extremely efficient (and because the pellets are made locally, the transport energy cost is low) or by electricty coupled with ground circulation heat-exchanger systems. With a heat exchanger you get approx. 3kW heat for every 1kW electricity used and as a bonus, half of the electricity in Sweden is generated by hydropower. Coupled with much better insulation, it means that a house here in Sweden uses less energy than a similar house in Britain, even though average temperatutes are much lower (-30 C is not uncommon and -15C is average for much of the winter) and the average CO2 loading is much less. Gas (the fuel of choice in Britain for domestic heating) may be efficient at the point of use, but it of course is a non-renewable resource and requires a huge distribution infrastructure.

In Swedish towns, many houses are heated directly by piped hot water, with a large amount of the energy coming from either industry or rubbish incinerators. For example, in the nearest town to where I live there is a big steel works and a huge heat exchanger captures the low-grade energy from the cooling system of the rolling mill. This in turn powers the domestic heating for a substatial proportion of the houses in the town. That's win-win for everybody. The steel mill sells on the energy and reduces it's energy cost, the people of the town get cheap heating and the environment wins out because of efficient energy use.

So...the first thing the decision makers of Britain need to do is to go and look at some other European countries and realise how hopeless energy policy has been in Britain. Then they need to get going on a range of measures to encourage energy efficiency. For example, instead of handing out winter fuel allowances to pensioners, send folks round to insulate their houses better. Make insulation materials zero-rated for VAT, etc. etc.

Mark

 

[Peter Burgess]

The problem might have its roots in our history of having had a seemingly unending supply of cheap coal at our disposal.

 

[kay]

So...the first thing the decision makers of Britain need to do is to go and look at some other European countries and realise how hopeless energy policy has been in Britain. Then they need to get going on a range of measures to encourage energy efficiency. For example, instead of handing out winter fuel allowances to pensioners, send folks round to insulate their houses better. Make insulation materials zero-rated for VAT, etc. etc.

I gather the new 'home information packs' that people selling houses will have to produce will also include an 'energy rating'. I imagine it will be a fairly simplistic tick box thing. My house, with 22inch solid stone walls and no cavity to insulate, doesn't stand a chance.

 

[tubby two]

Marks quite right, i never realised you could get triple glazing until i saw every place in sweden has it. The quality of housing really is considerably better over there- especially when i compare it to a student house in newcastle with exactly the same mis-fitted single glazed sash windows mentioned before. I had to fill all the holes with silicone in winter and peel it off to let some air in in summer.

Maybe our problem isnt just reaated to our seemingly endless coal and gas supplies (!) but our quick-fix attitude to repairs, like the shitty state of the roads compared to sweden (dirt roads excepted!).

tt.

 

[kay]

Maybe our problem isnt just reaated to our seemingly endless coal and gas supplies (!) but our quick-fix attitude to repairs, like the shitty state of the roads compared to sweden (dirt roads excepted!).

tt.

We've got a lot more traffic using our roads than  most countries!

 

[tubby two]

We've got a lot more traffic using our roads than  most countries!


[/quote]

True, but in that case we have more road users paying more road tax so it should even out, right?

I'd have thought somewhere the size of sweden had more miles of road per head of population than us? I dont know the areas but its 'effing huge and were tiddly, yet we contain around 55m compared to their 9m, i think.

tt.

 

[AndyF]

Maybe our problem isnt just reaated to our seemingly endless coal and gas supplies (!) but our quick-fix attitude to repairs, like the shitty state of the roads compared to sweden (dirt roads excepted!).

tt.

We've got a lot more traffic using our roads than  most countries!

Our roads are maintained to too high a standard!!

That costs a great deal of money, and perfectly servicable roads get dug up for no reason. Think there are always roadworks going on - thats why. Fixing perfectly good roads is bad for the environment, and generates huge amounts of waste material, tar, hardcore etc, to be replaced by new hardcore from limestone quarries. Bad bad bad....

The French fix a road when it needs it, not before. Their road tax is £28. The two are connected.

I want to campagain for worse roads......

 

[gus horsley]

Going back to the environmental impact of such schemes, I remember someone posted a reply saying that the wildlife would happily relocate itself.  I've just read a report by the British Trust for Ornithology on the impact of the Cardiff barrage on the resident redshank population.  The Cardiff redshanks did indeed relocate (to Rhymney Marshes) but didn't fare as well as the Rhymney redshanks.  After a year they were about 70% lighter in bodyweight and their survival rate had dropped from 85% to 78%.  It doesn't sound like a lot but represents about 350 extra fatalities.  So there you have it, even if the birds do manage to relocate, they aren't a bit happy about it.

 

[kay]

We've got a lot more traffic using our roads than  most countries!

True, but in that case we have more road users paying more road tax so it should even out, right?

I'd have thought somewhere the size of sweden had more miles of road per head of population than us? I dont know the areas but its 'effing huge and were tiddly, yet we contain around 55m compared to their 9m, i think.

tt.

I'd expect total road mileage to be linked more to size of population than to land area. After all, roads link places which people want to go to, which are generally places where other people are. So it wouldn't surprise me in the least if we had as many miles of road as Sweden.

Actually, are our roads bad? They're not great in urban areas round here, but the country roads seem fine. I'm not sure I regard road-mending as the highest priority for local council spending.

 

[tubby two]

True, it's probably not the highest priority when you look at the joys of the NHS etc, but urban roads are still pretty awful, especially in newcastle- in some places you need a mountain bike to negotiate all the potholes.

My swedish point was more linked to miles of road per head of population, i'm sure we have more roads and more people (in total), but less road per person (miles per tax payer), and i think i was trying to make that point in relation to the maintenance policies uk councils seem to have, whereby if a small patch breaks down you only patch a wee little bit, which then breaks down round the edges so they patch the edges- instead of just resurfacing a whole 5m stretch which costs more in the first place but is cheaper in the long run- which was analagous to the renewable energy scenario (see, this very off-topic post gets there eventually, in a tenuous way!).

France however, has a far milder climate than us, especially in the south- hence their roads can be made far cheaper, yet still last twice as long, because they dont get constant freeze-thaw cycles over the winter. The swedes are a bit closer to us there, only they dont get the thaw bit of the cycle...

Anyway, i've confused myself as to the point i was making here but i do hope you all enjoy your 'break' from work in reading this!

tt.

 

[AndyF]

The French climate is different, but still harsh - they have plenty of Alpine roads, plus their roads have the potential to melt in the Summer...

Strangely though, unlike UK roads, the tar doesn't melt...... :-\

My OT point was that roads don't need to be perfect, and there is a diminishing return on maintaining the relatively high standard in the UK. I'd go for lower tax and worse roads myself..

 

[kay]

Worse roads = slower cars = greater survival chances in accidents

Unless, of course, worse roads = more accidents as cars do unexpected manoeuvres to avoid potholes.

 

[hoehlenforscher]

BUt since we are following the US model and soon more than 50% of the country will be driving SUVs and Chelsea Tractors then why bother repairing the roads at all. After all these trucks will get you up a mountain, so a few potholes aren't going to trouble them!

 

[darkplaces]

Going back to the environmental impact of such schemes, I remember someone posted a reply saying that the wildlife would happily relocate itself.  I've just read a report by the British Trust for Ornithology on the impact of the Cardiff barrage on the resident redshank population.  The Cardiff redshanks did indeed relocate (to Rhymney Marshes) but didn't fare as well as the Rhymney redshanks.  After a year they were about 70% lighter in bodyweight and their survival rate had dropped from 85% to 78%.  It doesn't sound like a lot but represents about 350 extra fatalities.  So there you have it, even if the birds do manage to relocate, they aren't a bit happy about it.

Let them write a letter of complaint then like you will when the lights go out. Whats missing out of them stats is a timeline, 5 years down the line the birds might be loving the new habitat. Stats are meaningless.

 

[whitelackington]

It might be a good idea to build a tidal barrage across The Wash.

This could be used as a test run for The Bristol Channel.

Now I know the main point is that The Bristol Channel has the second highest tidal range in the World, therefore lots (I/3 to 1/4 of potential electric need for U.K.) of potential power
BUT if it don't work they don't have to mess our side of the country up 8)

 

[kay]

Don't see why they should mess up our end of the country.
Try the Thames instead - that's where all the people live who need all this extra energy.

 

[Peter Burgess]

We pipe our electricity over from France which is close by. Its the remote nether regions of the country that need the electricity as its too difficult to pump it all that way uphill.