Severn barrage

[cap n chris]

We have 1,000,000 people unemployed. We have 600,000 job vacancies. Therefore, need for immigration to fill jobs is zero.

Hmm....

Problem is this: the people who live here need a income of £x to provide them with their basic living requirements. "Guest workers" who come here and stay in shared low-grade accommodation (caravans/bedsits, sleeping in shifts (yes!)) can work for less per hour and still consider their wages to be acceptable; the money is saved and used back home where it is worth considerably more than it is here.

Without such workers fruit and vegetables wouldn't be picked, gardens wouldn't be maintained and a whole host of other labour-intensive low-paid jobs WOULDN'T be done. Unemployed people who are born and bred here (a) wouldn't do the job even if it paid more `cos they can't be arsed and (b) couldn't live on the wages anyway.

So, it appears I disagree with the previous (but one) comment. 

 

[AndyF]

We have 1,000,000 people unemployed. We have 600,000 job vacancies. Therefore, need for immigration to fill jobs is zero.

Without such workers fruit and vegetables wouldn't be picked, gardens wouldn't be maintained and a whole host of other labour-intensive low-paid jobs WOULDN'T be done. Unemployed people who are born and bred here (a) wouldn't do the job even if it paid more `cos they can't be arsed and (b) couldn't live on the wages anyway.

So, it appears I disagree with the previous (but one) comment. 

I don't agree. Take fruit picking, all it would mean is that the pickers would be paid £4 an hour instead of £1.50 an hour, and the price of strawberries in Tesco would be £1.50 a punnet instead of £1.00. the job would get done, it just wouldn't be by people forced to live in poor conditions.

The same argument was used for grape picking in France, but the grapes very definitly do get picked....

I don't want the UK to turn into a slave economy. People sleeping in shifts is not a "good thing", and isn't something that I want this country to aspire to!

Having fewer people unemployed forces wages up, and makes the "low paid" jobs into better paid jobs, attracting people off their backsides and into work.

I'd like to see 100% employment, a steady population, none of my taxes going into unemployment benefit. Many of the problems of sink estates and social depravation would vanish. Thats the policy goal I'd like to see, not giving up and importing slaves.

 

[graham]

That might be what you want to see, but ...

I am not talking about importing "slaves". This discussion is about more than just illegal immigration it is about legal imigration as well.

 

[gus horsley]

How come we've gone from global environmental issues to illegal immigrants?  I would like to have the option to live anywhere on the planet I like, why shouldn't someone else?  We have the luxury of living in a country with a temperate climate (at the moment), good standard of living and still a fair bit of leg room.  I believe it's a bit tight to tell other people to bugger off because they're not as fortunate as us.  Of course, if they've come over purely to rip us off, then they can bugger off, but I think those people must be in a small minority.

 

[AndyF]

How come we've gone from global environmental issues to illegal immigrants?  I would like to have the option to live anywhere on the planet I like, why shouldn't someone else?  We have the luxury of living in a country with a temperate climate (at the moment), good standard of living and still a fair bit of leg room.  I believe it's a bit tight to tell other people to bugger off because they're not as fortunate as us.  Of course, if they've come over purely to rip us off, then they can bugger off, but I think those people must be in a small minority.

I think economic migration is not unrelated to the global environment, as it involves people upping their living standards and thus consuming more fuel, cars, fridges, etc.etc.

Governemnt talks about sustainability (buzzword). To me that means stable consumption, stable population, stable living standards.

If people moving here are sleeping in shifts on poverty wages, that is a negative step in my book, their children will be in poverty too.... Its exploitation not opportunity.

Why not stop people moving here, legal or illegal. If they want to live in a great country, and their own sucks, then they could and should work to make THAT country a great place to live, not increase the population density here with overstretched health and public transport, schools falling down, not enough water etc.

The UK HAS done more than it's fair share over the decades to accomodate migration, eventually you have to say, "sorry, place is full mate, try somewhere else", or should we let the process continue indefintily. 70 million population?, 80 million? 90million? where would you like the line drawn?

 

[tubby two]

Ok, but what bout the immigrants we need in this country, not the cleaners and fruit pickers and low paid workers, but the professionals- doctors and dentists etc on which the NHS relies... we have neither the funds nor rersources to train our own and the government might make a lot of noise but actually does bugger all about it. Take the shortage of dentists for example, government idea to allow schools to increase yearly intake by about 40% but then give no extra funding, result is that2 years later the intake has gone down to less than it was before! They are alo trying to 'build' a new medical school in the south west, the 'peninsula medical school', however they arent actually building much- it will be based on outreach teaching using existing hospitals with little in the way of solid teaching and research resources. I for one wouldnt want to be treated by a fresh graduate from there!

Anyway, my roundabout point- we need immigrants. Other point, many of the low-paid workers (i.e. the cleaners in this hospital) who you may assume are just 'shift sleepers' are actually studying on part time PhD or other HE courses (and paying 4x what we would pay for the priviledge), and will one day fill the jobs we cant train our own lazy population to do.

tt.

 

[paul]

If people moving here are sleeping in shifts on poverty wages, that is a negative step in my book, their children will be in poverty too.... Its exploitation not opportunity.

The point is that to some people living in other countries the wages they recieve for doing low-paid jobs here is much more than they would recieve intheir home country  - to them it is worth a short term of hardship in order to save, what is to them, very good pay. Many are from other EU countries and have just as much a right to live and work in Britain as Britons have to live and work in other EU countries.

Why not stop people moving here, legal or illegal. If they want to live in a great country, and their own sucks, then they could and should work to make THAT country a great place to live, not increase the population density here with overstretched health and public transport, schools falling down, not enough water etc.

The UK HAS done more than it's fair share over the decades to accomodate migration, eventually you have to say, "sorry, place is full mate, try somewhere else", or should we let the process continue indefintily. 70 million population?, 80 million? 90million? where would you like the line drawn?

The reason that Britain has so many Legal immigrants is because many are from Commonwealth countries, ex-colonies etc.

Brtitain, at one time, was an unwanted "visitor" in their countries in the past (remember the British Empire?) - a fact often conveniently forgotten.

Let's just go caving!

 

[AndyF]

Ok, but what bout the immigrants we need in this country, not the cleaners and fruit pickers and low paid workers, but the professionals- doctors and dentists etc on which the NHS relies...

Perhaps, just perhaps if we weren't paying 1,000,000 people unemplyment benefit the money could be redirected into health, raising NHS wages, thus making the NHS an attractive career to the doctor that we spend money to train who then go abroad.

The NHS only relies on these people BECAUSE of low wages, not for any particular skill set unique to them.

 

[graham]

The reason that Britain has so many Legal immigrants is because many are from Commonwealth countries, ex-colonies etc.

And 200,000 Poles.

 

[whitelackington]

I think the number of people who could be described as unemployed in this country might be closer to 5,000,000.
Just think how many people don't have jobs but are on some doddgy scheme.
An example would be the previously hardworking Glasgow men.
Once they were building ships, working in mines, working on the docks, doing engineering.
Now, one third of the adult male population of Glascow are on invalidity benefit.

Sorry I spelt Glasgow incorrectly, no it is not in Wales in is a city in Scotland.
By the way, all of you, think yourselves lucky you don't live in China (hope I've spelt that right)
Three Gorges dam, North South Waterway etc,
No good complaining there, just because the goverment are flooding your area, you would either be bumped off or re-educated

 

[gus horsley]

I think the number of people who could be described as unemployed in this country might be closer to 5,000,000.
Just think how many people don't have jobs but are on some doddgy scheme.
An example would be the previously hardworking Glascow men.
Once they were building ships, working in mines, working on the docks, doing engineering.
Now, one third of the adult male population of Glascow are on invalidity benefit.

Glascow?  Is that in Mid-Wales?  I suppose there's another third on Income Support, a third on Jobseekers Allowance and a third on various back-to-work schemes.  Oh no, that's four thirds.  It's no wonder the country's in such a mess...  I'm sorry, it's Monday, and I don't want to be here.

 

[whitelackington]

Where did you "Do Maths" :halo:

 

[andymorgan]

I love the attitudes of people who complain about immigrants who are in the working hard for an honest wage, then have a holiday home in France or Spain, and ultimately retire to one of the places.
  Also it seems if people don't mind people from the USA, Australia and other English speaking countries working in the UK; and dislike people from rich non English speaking countries (e.g. France, Germany) a bit, but not much more. However it seems people from poor countries are hated more. Why is this?

 

[AndyF]

I love the attitudes of people who complain about immigrants who are in the working hard for an honest wage, then have a holiday home in France or Spain, and ultimately retire to one of the places.

I don't think people do complain about those people. I think they complain about people who arrive in the country illegally, apply for asylum under some bogus circumstances, then go straight onto benefit paid for by guess who. They get a flat, money for a telly, fridge etc. and cash, when we have how many people homeless here who should be higher in the queue.

They also complain about illegal working like fruit picking etc., paid below the minimum wage, but thus displacing a job from someone already here who would, and needs to work legitimately.

Of course this is going to create resentment. Perhaps you think the above two situations are O.K.? If not, then what would you actually do about it if you were in government?

If people retire to France, they don't go on the dole there, or displace a job from an indiginous person. Their pension is paid by the UK still, and the money they spend is injected into the local economy there.

 

[graham]

FYI asylum seekers only go on benefit because they are not allowed to work until their case is settled.

 

[andymorgan]

If people retire to France, they don't go on the dole there, or displace a job from an indiginous person. Their pension is paid by the UK still, and the money they spend is injected into the local economy there.

No, but they still drain the local healthcare system and push up the house prices so high that the locals cannot afford them....

 

[AndyF]

If people retire to France, they don't go on the dole there, or displace a job from an indiginous person. Their pension is paid by the UK still, and the money they spend is injected into the local economy there.

No, but they still drain the local healthcare system and push up the house prices so high that the locals cannot afford them....

Healthcare is charged back to UK NHS via form E111.

Also, I've never heard French people complain that they can sell their house for too much money...!!

English (and other European) second homes/ emigration has benefited France and other coutries hugely as they have suffered serious depopulation in many areas.

Weaker economies like Slovenia, Czech Republic etc have had enormous injections of cash and work by virtue of second home purchase and renovation. It is TRUE distribution of wealth by natural means, as that cash is effectively exported from the UK and placed into those economies.

I just don't see this line as being in the same vein...

Andyf

 

[whitelackington]

We have wondered a bit.
To get us back on thread, may I re-state that we should first do The Wash
then if it don't work, we don't have to bugger up the better part of the country.
Thankyou

 

[andymorgan]

Healthcare is charged back to UK NHS via form E111.

No it isn't, you have to hand back your European Health Insurance Card (the replacement for the E111). iIm paying for my healthcare here in Germany, but if was a free system I would just get it free from that country, not the UK.

Also, I've never heard French people complain that they can sell their house for too much money...!!

There are benefits of course. I was just hearing the complaints about the British from my French and Spanish friends.

English (and other European) second homes/ emigration has benefited France and other coutries hugely as they have suffered serious depopulation in many areas.

  Staying at a holiday home for a few weeks a year wont really help. Ok people buy there, but don't work.

Anyway my point was that people who complain about 'foreigners', are happy to leave Britain on holiday or retirement, I don't see the difference.


Back to the topic I don't believe the barrage should be built. It will allow the Welsh to get into Somerset and take all the jobs and women (and vice versa)

 

[graham]

Back to the topic I don't believe the barrage should be built. It will allow the Welsh to get into Somerset and take all the jobs and women (and vice versa)

You think our Somerset lassies will be interested in they bloody Welsh?