langcliffe
Well-known member
Sorry - the date for Balderstones' book should be about 1890 (yes, there were two authors!).
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- Thread starter Pitlamp
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Shorely (sic) it shouldn't have an apostrophe at all, as it's the cave where the Johns were lost, not their property...
Turns out that Balderston doesn't have second E, but there is a useful index of their Chasms & Caves:
Turns out that Balderston doesn't have second E, but there is a useful index of their Chasms & Caves:
the index of Ingleton: Bygone and Present by Robert & Margaret Balderston (1888)
Index-Contents of Old and rare books on CDrom.
www.yorkshirecdbooks.com
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langcliffe
Well-known member
Mea culpa. Incidentally - don't be too definitive about the publication date. It doesn't have one in my copy.
This makes use of the Balderstons' descriptions & map:
Old Cumbria Gazetteer - frameset
www.lakesguides.co.uk
Although it seems that he wasn't the most reliable source:
ingletonanglingassociation.co.uk
Rules, History & Constitution, Risk Assessments - Ingleton Angling Association
ingletonanglingassociation.co.uk
You're not the only one to add an E (a brief biography):
www.wikitree.com
Although he wasn't at home for the 1861 census, Kiln Hill No.75 (when 12):
Robert Richardson Metcalfe Balderston (1849-abt.1928) | WikiTree FREE Family Tree
Is this your ancestor? Compare DNA and explore genealogy for Robert Balderston born 1849 Hawes, Yorkshire, England, United Kingdom died 1928 Settle, Yorkshire, England, United Kingdom including parents + descendants + 1 photos + DNA connections + more in the free family tree community.
Although he wasn't at home for the 1861 census, Kiln Hill No.75 (when 12):
Hawes 1861
www.dalesgenealogy.com
langcliffe
Well-known member
"By 1870 the Secretary was another local character – Robert Richardson Metcalfe Balderston. Robert was probably to blame for our river names being switched. Up until Robert’s “Ingleton Bygone and Present” (1888), the Doe was to the west from Kingsdale and the Twiss came down from Chapel-le-Dale. All the modern writers agree over this too: Alfred Wainwright, David Johnson, John Bentley. Unfortunately, the Ordnance Survey based their map on Robert Balderston’s jumbled one and hence all the confusion."Although it seems that he wasn't the most reliable source:
Rules, History & Constitution, Risk Assessments - Ingleton Angling Association
I don't think this is correct. The 1851 6" OS map shews the "Twis" coming from Kingsdale.
So the mistake was before that... (1851 map calls western The Twis or The Greet, whilst eastern is The Doe or The Dale [Chapel] Beck) *my square brackets*
Certainly their 1894 large scale map doesn't name either but has the eastern passing through Twisleton Glen, whilst western is Swilla Glen:
& next section up calls eastern the Greeta (& the quarter inch & one inch both show it the same):
Increasing the confusion, the 1909 version has west as Doe, whilst east is (still) Greta:
Repeated on upper sections:
Whilst this suggests that both names refer to the western (which different sources were at that time!)
oldfieldslimestone.blogspot.com
Certainly the OS have put minor errors on maps to catch out copyright infringements, but this seems too big an adjustment
Certainly their 1894 large scale map doesn't name either but has the eastern passing through Twisleton Glen, whilst western is Swilla Glen:
& next section up calls eastern the Greeta (& the quarter inch & one inch both show it the same):
Increasing the confusion, the 1909 version has west as Doe, whilst east is (still) Greta:
Repeated on upper sections:
Whilst this suggests that both names refer to the western (which different sources were at that time!)
A Three Peaks Up and Under
The Waterfalls of Ingleton Rock Music for Connoisseurs (part one) The great writers and travellers of the past were in no dou...
oldfieldslimestone.blogspot.com
Certainly the OS have put minor errors on maps to catch out copyright infringements, but this seems too big an adjustment
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langcliffe
Well-known member
Depends on whether it's a possessive apostrophe (that was the dog's dinner) or a contractive apostrophe (isn't it good).
langcliffe
Well-known member
How do you come to that conclusion? It's only the angling club that says that there was a mistake, and we have established that they are not a reliable source.
Because the OS switched them between 1851 & 1894, then went back again (it makes more sense for the Twis to be in Twisleton Glen & pass Twisleton Scars, although I haven't found an explanation for the name Doe). Alternatively the Twis & Doe are the same river & the Greta comes down from Chapel le Dale.
langcliffe
Well-known member
But you are assuming there was a mistake before 1851, without having justified it. Maybe it was called the Twiss because it ran past Twistleton Manor.
The names don't actually help identify which is which, but the Twis does seem to get it's name from the Hall:
epns.nottingham.ac.uk
www.familysearch.org
Simpson's map of 1748 calls it the Gete R(iver), whilst reports from the late 1700s identify the eastern stream as Wease / Greta, whilst the western is the Kingsdale (earlier maps show them but not named):
In Scotland (of course Ouse is also used throughout England, but not for whitewater rivers, so maybe referring to headwaters):
www.dsl.ac.uk
Although it maybe more likely to refer to the water debouching from the mouth of caves:
www.merriam-webster.com
Twistleton :: Survey of English Place-Names
epns.nottingham.ac.uk
England Place Name Origins - International Institute
The following places exist in the UK and will appear on someone’s census return as a ‘place of birth’, to readily confuse or amuse the family historian (Maryon):
Simpson's map of 1748 calls it the Gete R(iver), whilst reports from the late 1700s identify the eastern stream as Wease / Greta, whilst the western is the Kingsdale (earlier maps show them but not named):
Old Cumbria Gazetteer - frameset
www.lakesguides.co.uk
In Scotland (of course Ouse is also used throughout England, but not for whitewater rivers, so maybe referring to headwaters):
Dictionaries of the Scots Language:: SND :: weeze
www.dsl.ac.uk
Definition of WEASAND
throat, gullet; also : trachea… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com
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Of course, I'd still expect the Twis to flow through Twisleton Glen, whilst Swilla Glen seems to get it's name from:
www.etymonline.com
Whereas "Greta" derives from the Old Norse "Griótá", meaning "stony stream", which is very appropriate.
en.wikipedia.org
swill | Etymology of swill by etymonline
"wash (something) out, swirl (liquid, in a container), gargle," probably from… See origin and meaning of swill.
www.etymonline.com
Whereas "Greta" derives from the Old Norse "Griótá", meaning "stony stream", which is very appropriate.
River Greta, Cumbria - Wikipedia
Enys in 1783 calls it the Waise from Chapel le Dale (which fits better with the 2nd etymology - page found thanks to Martin Wright's post about pre 1777 Derbyshire cave diving). He also visited a few other caves (with links to other early visitors):
John Enys Journal 1783
www.kirkbymalham.info
