Spectator Sport

[Nigelh]

My thoughts (for what they're worth) Tony has hit a few of the right spots. There are just more things for Red Bull fuelled folks to do.

University clubs. For sure there was a need for them years ago before SRT became as popular as it is. If you wanted to get underground back then the only way was on loads and loads of ladders. No small team could afford that.

I climb and cave with a small group of friends. We have been able to buy our own kit and rope for SRT. It's not that expensive any more. We came to caving from a climbing background, as such we had a good knowledge of rope work and working safely at heights. How do other people get that knowledge and experience?

Climbing has always been seen by non climbers / non cavers / the media as the glamorous side of outdoor pursuits. Caving not so. It has the wet, squalid, cramped, claustrophobic ( ooh it's so terribly dark) image.

The idea of joining a club just puts me off. I cave (and climb) to have fun, to get out there with my mates enjoying the beauty of the great outdoors. I don't want meetings and committees and the like. I've been approached by a couple of clubs to join them. I politely declined both offers realising the avenues into some less accessible caves were being denied.

For me (and my mates) it is about having an adventure. We all work hard. Put the pencil, the mouse, the spanner, whatever down. Go out there have fun!

 

[droid]

We came to caving from a climbing background, as such we had a good knowledge of rope work and working safely at heights. How do other people get that knowledge and experience?

They go to the Commercial side, which, as is pointed out waaaay above, is NOT declining.....

 

[JasonC]

The idea of joining a club just puts me off. I cave (and climb) to have fun, to get out there with my mates enjoying the beauty of the great outdoors. /snip/

... these are exactly the reasons I joined a club
Each to his (or her) own

 

[Filter]

I've been approached by a couple of clubs to join them. I politely declined both offers realising the avenues into some less accessible caves were being denied.

How does joining a club limit your access to caves?

 

[Cookie]

These are the BCA membership figures.

They don't show a decline in the last 8 year. If anything there is a steady increase.

Make of them what you will.

       2007   2008   2009   2010   2011   2012   2013   2014
DIMs    437    432    397    487    505    507    513    535
CIMs  4,965  5,216  5,115  5,296  5,435  5,397  5,585  5,564
Clubs   153    152    160    166    189    159    186    190

 

[graham]

Make of them what you will.

The mean size of a club has gone down over the period from 32 to 29.

 

[Nigelh]

I've been approached by a couple of clubs to join them. I politely declined both offers realising the avenues into some less accessible caves were being denied.

How does joining a club limit your access to caves?

I think you have misunderstood me there fella. I said not joining would limit access but that I was prepared to accept that.

 

[Simon Wilson]

I've been approached by a couple of clubs to join them. I politely declined both offers realising the avenues into some less accessible caves were being denied.

How does joining a club limit your access to caves?

In the northern region there are sanctions for caving without a permit that do no apply if you are not in a CNCC member club so joining a club might well limit your access to caves. The permits systems can be seen as a disincentive to people joining clubs, not the other way round as is often assumed.

 

[nearlywhite]

The mean size of a club has gone down over the period from 32 to 29.

The following graph is your fault Graham 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bWflwFDbvnWoP0wtaD1U1iKW97Ocmn4Kgn0VAP_mSyU/pubchart?oid=393777956&format=interactive

Actually pretty convincing, caveats about the data aside. I would like to get my hands on some raw data though to see how the structures of clubs are changing i.e. are 'medium sized' clubs thinning out and are bigger clubs the natural step forward to keep huts and things ticking over. I'd love to show statistically that say in Derbyshire the Eldon and TSG should merge 

Some demographic data would be even better but that is difficult what with data protection issues.

Rather on pontificating on the cause of the decline (though not over the 8 years thanks to Cookie's data), ideas for solutions would be good. It would be nice to see how other clubs retain and train their members or put on good intro sessions/events.

 

[graham]

I've been blamed for many things over the years, but I'm sure I've never been blamed for maths before.  8)

 

[bograt]

I've been blamed for many things over the years, but I'm sure I've never been blamed for maths before.  8)

I suspect that SpelioTrigonometry is all your fault 

However, people seem to overlook the earlier (early '70's) foot & mouth access ban, caving recovered finestyle from that, the question is, how long did it take?.

 

[graham]

I've been blamed for many things over the years, but I'm sure I've never been blamed for maths before.  8)

I suspect that SpelioTrigonometry is all your fault 

Nope, Blame anybody from Wig to Julian Todd for that, just not me.

However, people seem to overlook the earlier (early '70's) foot & mouth access ban, caving recovered finestyle from that, the question is, how long did it take?.

Don't know about the recovery time & I suspect Cookie cannot supply as good data but I have to admit I thought the same thing. FMD is not the cause. UBSS actually got a dispensation on funding from the SU because of it, but we recovered quite quickly.

 

[bograt]

I suspect that SpelioTrigonometry is all your fault 

Nope, Blame anybody from Wig to Julian Todd for that, just not me.

[Don't know about the recovery time & I suspect Cookie cannot supply as good data but I have to admit I thought the same thing. FMD is not the cause. UBSS actually got a dispensation on funding from the SU because of it, but we recovered quite quickly.
[/quote]

Still think its your fault! :tease:

It is a shame we cannot get figures for that period, I recall a significant change to Giants Hole whilst the ban was in place--

 

[graham]

At least I can construct my posts so that the quotes work properly. 

 

[tony from suffolk]

You can't draw conclusions on numbers of people actively caving to numbers of cavers. I get the feeling that, for reasons given earlier, a significant percentage of registered cavers aren't as active as was the case in the past.

 

[nearlywhite]

You can't draw conclusions on numbers of people actively caving to numbers of cavers. I get the feeling that, for reasons given earlier, a significant percentage of registered cavers aren't as active as was the case in the past.

Not sure that matters. One person's definition of an active caver differs to another. As does the definition of what constitutes proper caving. At least these numbers give an idea of how big the community is and a general trend

 

[jasonbirder]

One person's definition of an active caver differs to another

Isn't that pretty straight forward?

Someone that goes Caving fairly regularly...

 

[Peter Burgess]

This discussion is all about how many cavers are seen out doing stuff.

If cavers are only getting underground once a fortnight instead of once a week, then it stands to reason that if the number of cavers is the same, their visibility will have halved. You cannot come to conclusions about this without considering as many relevant variables as possible.

 

[Bottlebank]

One person's definition of an active caver differs to another

Isn't that pretty straight forward?

Someone that goes Caving fairly regularly...

 

[jasonbirder]

Its easy to be pedantic about what constitutes an "Active Caver"
But i guess we all know what one is when we talk about it...
Once a week/fortnight/month even once a quarter probably counts!
Once last year on the Christmas Candle trip round Box/Ashford Black marble etc etc you@re probably not!

Either way I guess everyone that gets "Out and about" knows there are less cavers about than their used to be...just one look at parking spaces in popular areas on a weekend, the number of people you bump into underground/ the number of times you have to "rig under" or wait at pitch heads will confirm that...

Whilst many Professional Instructors report good numbers...are the people they take underground frequently people that think "that was ace - I'm going to buy some kit and start going caving regularly" ?