SRT Equipment

[tamarmole]

It really does not matter what descender you get as long as you learn to use it safely, although I would recommend that you stay away from anything too exotic until you have some experience under your belt.

I would suggest that you consider getting what your mates are using, that way if you have problems they are more likely to spot it before the problem becomes terminal. Likewise any advice you get from your mates will at least be based on experience.

 

[cap n chris]

Chris, I bet when you're caving you mostly do the rigging using your own large size ropes.

You can win that bet, if you like! - FYI my thickest rope is 9mm. I usually use narrower than that.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Regarding the Simple vrs. Stop discussion...

... Imagine you get hit by a piece of equipment or a falling rock your caving buddy knocked off a ledge 20-30 above you. Your helmet saves your head but you're unconscious and as you couldn't tie in your Simple (as you're unconscious  )  you keep sliding/falling down the rope and break your spine. With a Stop, you'd just be unconscious and it would keep you on the rope where you, well, stopped.  And your buddies can lower you to a safe place where you could wait for help. ...

Has there ever been a case of anything like this happening?

 

[cap n chris]

If something hasn't happened does it mean it won't?

 

[ah147]

Vote for simple. I like it. Simple as that...

Best advice I'd give you? Get in touch with Tony Seddon.

I once took my girlfriend to see him. After he spent over 2 hours explaining the merits of different models and ensuring she had the perfect fit for her kind of caving (asking her what caves she went to most, what caves she liked best etc), she finally walked out with her first oversuit!

With service like that, why would I go anywhere else?


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[Mark Wright]

Regarding the Simple vrs. Stop discussion...

... Imagine you get hit by a piece of equipment or a falling rock your caving buddy knocked off a ledge 20-30 above you. Your helmet saves your head but you're unconscious and as you couldn't tie in your Simple (as you're unconscious  )  you keep sliding/falling down the rope and break your spine. With a Stop, you'd just be unconscious and it would keep you on the rope where you, well, stopped.  And your buddies can lower you to a safe place where you could wait for help. ...

Has there ever been a case of anything like this happening?

In the industrial rope access industry the type of accident described above has happened on at least 3 occasions that I'm aware of, and all three were experienced cavers.

Mark

 

[paul]

It is worth noting also there have been more than three Stop "clutch and plummet" accidents among cavers in the UK, especially on Garlands Pot in Giants Hole, Derbyshire.

 

[Kahula]

Wow, thank you for all the input and ideas. It has given me a lot to think about. I will have a good look around at hidden earth.
Thank you,
Nicky.

 

[ah147]

It is worth noting also there have been more than three Stop "clutch and plummet" accidents among cavers in the UK, especially on Garlands Pot in Giants Hole, Derbyshire.

Where's that like button?


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[enki_ck]

Regarding the Simple vrs. Stop discussion...

... Imagine you get hit by a piece of equipment or a falling rock your caving buddy knocked off a ledge 20-30 above you. Your helmet saves your head but you're unconscious and as you couldn't tie in your Simple (as you're unconscious  )  you keep sliding/falling down the rope and break your spine. With a Stop, you'd just be unconscious and it would keep you on the rope where you, well, stopped.  And your buddies can lower you to a safe place where you could wait for help. ...

Has there ever been a case of anything like this happening?

In the industrial rope access industry the type of accident described above has happened on at least 3 occasions that I'm aware of, and all three were experienced cavers.

Mark

I also know of a case where a caver had both of his arms broken by falling ice in an ice cave while on the rope,  150 meters below ground. 

 

[Fulk]

I also know of a case where a caver had both of his arms broken by falling ice in an ice cave while on the rope,  150 meters below ground. 

What happened to him?

 

[enki_ck]

I also know of a case where a caver had both of his arms broken by falling ice in an ice cave while on the rope,  150 meters below ground. 

What happened to him?

He got pulled up to a ledge half way up by his fellow caves and then the mountain rescue service did the rest. That happened some 15 years ago though. He's still an active caver.

 

[pwhole]

There are other advantages to using a Stop directly related to its self-braking function - on cleanish, not too thick ropes it can be used as an ascender - in fact on bolting or gardening work it's often the ideal way to move up and down short distances, though my dream device for that is a Grillon, but I wouldn't take that underground. ID's are even easier in this respect for work, but a Stop is reasonable. Also it can be used in hauling rigs and tensioned line systems, giving controlled release where necessary. My biggest gripe with the Stop is that in prolonged use the handle is bloody painful (why can't it have an ergonomic, padded grip?), but more dangerously, your hand sits right over the locking plate when squeezing the handle, and the index finger can inadvertently open the plate on difficult gnarly pitches - I've done it more than once.

 

[idriswilliams]

Regarding the Simple vrs. Stop discussion...

... Imagine you get hit by a piece of equipment or a falling rock your caving buddy knocked off a ledge 20-30 above you. Your helmet saves your head but you're unconscious and as you couldn't tie in your Simple (as you're unconscious  )  you keep sliding/falling down the rope and break your spine. With a Stop, you'd just be unconscious and it would keep you on the rope where you, well, stopped.  And your buddies can lower you to a safe place where you could wait for help. ...

I had an incident when a stop saved me from death or serious injury. I had just set of down from a good ledge after a rebelay I was rigging paying the rope out from a bag as I went. Somehow, it all happened so fast that I don't know how the rope jammed and was snatched out of my hand, I must have had the presence of mind to let go the handle. The stop stopped me and saved me. The rope had already freed itself and if I was not using a self locking descender I would have gone down uncontrolled although wide awake.

Idris Williams 

Has there ever been a case of anything like this happening?

 

[Simon Wilson]

Regarding the Simple vrs. Stop discussion...

... Imagine you get hit by a piece of equipment or a falling rock your caving buddy knocked off a ledge 20-30 above you. Your helmet saves your head but you're unconscious and as you couldn't tie in your Simple (as you're unconscious  )  you keep sliding/falling down the rope and break your spine. With a Stop, you'd just be unconscious and it would keep you on the rope where you, well, stopped.  And your buddies can lower you to a safe place where you could wait for help. ...

Has there ever been a case of anything like this happening?

I had an incident when a stop saved me from death or serious injury. I had just set of down from a good ledge after a rebelay I was rigging paying the rope out from a bag as I went. Somehow, it all happened so fast that I don't know how the rope jammed and was snatched out of my hand, I must have had the presence of mind to let go the handle. The stop stopped me and saved me. The rope had already freed itself and if I was not using a self locking descender I would have gone down uncontrolled although wide awake.

Idris Williams 

Maybe the lesson to learn is not to pay the rope directly out of a bag. I have seen people descending with rope coming straight out of a bag that they haven't packed themselves; it's difficult to believe anybody could be so crazy. I don't even do it when I have packed the bag. It's better to lower the whole rope down a pitch before you start to descend if you can but there are often times when you don't want to lower the rope down a pitch. If you had been using a Simple you would have had a hand free to pull a long loop of rope out of the bag as you went. It's yet another way that a Simple saves people from using bad technique.

 

[Fulk]

Simon Wilson:

I have seen people descending with rope coming straight out of a bag that they haven't packed themselves; it's difficult to believe anybody could be so crazy.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear  :-[ :-[ :-[

A LONG TIME AGO I had arranged to meet some people to do Rowten Pot, and they said they would provide the rope. When they arrived, they asked me if I would start rigging, so I said ?Yes?, and someone handed me a rope bag saying ?This is the rope for the first pitch, down to the ledge?. It appeared to be packed ?properly?, so I set off down the 70-ft or so pitch, to land on the big ledge above the next ? ~150-ft ? drop. As I reached the ledge, I slipped and started to slither towards the hole. ?Oh well?, I thought, ?no problem ? if my Stop doesn?t hold, I?ll fetch up against the knot in the end of the ? SHIT?, as the end flicked out of the bag, ?There?s no fucking knot!? Well (obviously, since I?m here to write this) the Stop did the business ? but I didn?t half bollock the person who had given me the rope bag. His excuse? ?It was packed for carrying to the cave, not for caving?.

So I guess my Stop probably (?) saved my life.

 

[enki_ck]

Regarding the Simple vrs. Stop discussion...

... Imagine you get hit by a piece of equipment or a falling rock your caving buddy knocked off a ledge 20-30 above you. Your helmet saves your head but you're unconscious and as you couldn't tie in your Simple (as you're unconscious  )  you keep sliding/falling down the rope and break your spine. With a Stop, you'd just be unconscious and it would keep you on the rope where you, well, stopped.  And your buddies can lower you to a safe place where you could wait for help. ...

Has there ever been a case of anything like this happening?

I had an incident when a stop saved me from death or serious injury. I had just set of down from a good ledge after a rebelay I was rigging paying the rope out from a bag as I went. Somehow, it all happened so fast that I don't know how the rope jammed and was snatched out of my hand, I must have had the presence of mind to let go the handle. The stop stopped me and saved me. The rope had already freed itself and if I was not using a self locking descender I would have gone down uncontrolled although wide awake.

Idris Williams 

Maybe the lesson to learn is not to pay the rope directly out of a bag. I have seen people descending with rope coming straight out of a bag that they haven't packed themselves; it's difficult to believe anybody could be so crazy. I don't even do it when I have packed the bag. It's better to lower the whole rope down a pitch before you start to descend if you can but there are often times when you don't want to lower the rope down a pitch. If you had been using a Simple you would have had a hand free to pull a long loop of rope out of the bag as you went. It's yet another way that a Simple saves people from using bad technique.

Lowering the rope down a pitch might be ok on smaller pitches of let's say 40ft. But how are you gonna do that on a longer pitch with a 100ft or 200ft rope with a number of rebelay points to be rigged?

It's customary here to tie two knots on the rope. One at the end of the rope so you don't fly through it when you get to the end of it and one a few feet before the end, lets say 10ft before the end on a 200ft rope. So the rigger knows that the rope is near the end and still has enough rope available to plan where and how to set up the last rebelay.

And while packing the rope, you tie the knot, show it to your fellow cavers, and tie the second knot and show it to your fellow cavers again. Then five by five loops criss-cross into the bag it goes.

I'm interested to hear how you guys pack your bags if you do it differently. 

 

[paul]

If you want to be sure there is a rope on the end of the rope, leave the end of the rope with its knot out of the tackle bag as it is being packed. When you get to the other end of the rope, tie it to the loop formed by the knot (a simple overhand knot will do) and shove both ends into the bag. 

When you pull the rope out of the bag (including when there are multiple ropes in one bag) you will then see the knot on the end as well.

 

[Simon Wilson]

One thing I definitely don't do is put five loops of rope in a bag at a time.

 

[Alex]

I always ask if I am rigging from a bag I had not packed my self, is there a knot in the end. It probably annoys my mates but its worth asking. The idea of paying out the rope before descending is often just not practical as it often gets snagged on a ledge partway down or it just becomes really heavy and awkward to tie knots if its a long pitch.

I am afraid I will continue to pay rope out from the bag on all but short simple pitches.

*I am not recommending anything its just what I do.