SRT kit and Karabiners

[Norwegian]

Hello everyone. This summer i'll be advancing onto vertical caving. I will be trained, but i will have to bring my own equipment. Sadly i don't live near any grottos from whom i can rent and try equipment. So i will be assembling my own. So far this is what i plan to buy. Obviously not looking to reinvent the wheel, these seem to be popular and common choices. Mostly just looked into petzl due to availabily. Any critique is welcome.

Petzl Superavanti
Petzl Omni Traict-Lock
Petzl Torse
Petzl Basic / Ascension
Petzl Croll L
Petzl Pantin
Petzl Stop
Petzl Spelegyca lanyard did look neat, but cowtails from climbing rope seems the better option.

However one area i struggle deciding is which karabiners. Type and locking mechanism. I'd appreciate some opinions on this.

1. Descender (petzl stop) i am thinking of using the Petzl Freino Z, as it neatly includes the braking karabiner. However, it comes in two variant, twist-lock and triact-lock. Norm seems to keep the descender on the equipment loop while ascending. I'd imagine triact could be hassle, if needing to change from ascent to descent in the middle of the rope, but would be safer than the twist lock.

2. Cowtails. Seem like snaplinks can be controversial depending on who you ask. Some think screwlocks are too much of a hassle. Thinking twistlooks might be a good middleground. My eyes are on the Petzl Sm'D or Petzl Am'D.

3. Petzl Djinn or Sm'D for attaching footcords to the hand jammer.

4. Safety link to the hand jammer. Some just use the long cowtail instead, i believe i'd like to implement the safety link in my setup. Which carabiner would be suitable to attach to the hand jammer? Petzl OK with trilock or something like an Sm'D? I assume the safety link is attached to the D maillon with a knot, if not which carabiner would be suitable here?

 

[CJ]

Never used the Freino but recall some people complaining that the wear on the inbuilt braking krab (aluminium) will eventually force you to replace the whole thing. Might be something to think about if doing frequent SRT and/or in areas with a lot of abrasive mud/crud/grit.

 

[pwhole]

Don't get a Freino. Despite the extra expense, a good-quality krab for the descender (like the Am'D) and a Raumer Handy will last a lot longer and give far greater control, in far more circumstances. The Freino's braking spur is behind the descender, which is absurd when it feeds rope out sideways. The Handy will let you use thin rope safer, and on thick rope can be reversed so the wide end is uppermost. As they're made of cast solid stainless steel, they barely wear out - you could get ten years from one if you look after it (as I have). I don't have a handled descender, but I can halt my descent completely with a Handy simply by lifting my hand above 90°.

I use a maillon to connect my safety link to the D-ring as it's smaller than a krab, but still gives the option of removing it from the D-ring without undoing my harness. I consider the safety link to be a second long cowstail, and so occasionally use the krab that connects the ascender to the link to clip into anchors and traverses - so it needs to be good-quality, and always open when you need it to, if you choose to use it like that. An oval is probably fine here, but asymmetric may be an advantage for clipping to anchors if in awkward-reach positions when you're dangling.

Attach the footloop and the hand-jammer to the same krab, but attempt a configuration that makes the footloop impossible to lose - as I have, down a shaft, just as I was about to prussik up the top half. Luckily I wasn't the last up, and my colleague had a sling! I now use a thick rubber band to choke the footloop off to stop it moving - but that's a Dyneema one, so quite slippy. I must go retrieve that footloop sometime.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Hello everyone. This summer i'll be advancing onto vertical caving. I will be trained, but i will have to bring my own equipment. Sadly i don't live near any grottos from whom i can rent and try equipment. So i will be assembling my own. So far this is what i plan to buy. Obviously not looking to reinvent the wheel, these seem to be popular and common choices. Mostly just looked into petzl due to availabily. Any critique is welcome.

Petzl Superavanti
Petzl Omni Traict-Lock
Petzl Torse
Petzl Basic / Ascension
Petzl Croll L
Petzl Pantin
Petzl Stop
Petzl Spelegyca lanyard did look neat, but cowtails from climbing rope seems the better option.

However one area i struggle deciding is which karabiners. Type and locking mechanism. I'd appreciate some opinions on this.

1. Descender (petzl stop) i am thinking of using the Petzl Freino Z, as it neatly includes the braking karabiner. However, it comes in two variant, twist-lock and triact-lock. Norm seems to keep the descender on the equipment loop while ascending. I'd imagine triact could be hassle, if needing to change from ascent to descent in the middle of the rope, but would be safer than the twist lock.

2. Cowtails. Seem like snaplinks can be controversial depending on who you ask. Some think screwlocks are too much of a hassle. Thinking twistlooks might be a good middleground. My eyes are on the Petzl Sm'D or Petzl Am'D.

3. Petzl Djinn or Sm'D for attaching footcords to the hand jammer.

4. Safety link to the hand jammer. Some just use the long cowtail instead, i believe i'd like to implement the safety link in my setup. Which carabiner would be suitable to attach to the hand jammer? Petzl OK with trilock or something like an Sm'D? I assume the safety link is attached to the D maillon with a knot, if not which carabiner would be suitable here?

I'm sure you'll get lots of opinions here, but fundamentally I think all your proposals are quite reasonable and you've obviously done your research. Any of the things you suggest will work fine and safely.

The only things I'd probably suggest is:
a) you should always try a harness on before buying.
b) the Torse is a chest harness that works really well for some people, and doesn't work well at all for others (typically top-heavy people or very long-bodied people); again worth trying first.

1) I quite happily use a Freino, as do presumably many others. I only have the twist-lock as they didn't do the triact-lock when I bought mine. Either should be OK; whatever you are happiest with.

2) I have used both Sm'D and Am'D successfully and happily. Some people have found it tricky to grip and twist the gates when they are covered with mud. VF carabiners e.g. Petzl Vertigo are another alternative.

3 & 4) Personally I like a triact here because then you don't have to worry about the screwgate unscrewing/keeping the carabiner the 'right' way up. You can use the same carabiner to attach the hand jammer, foot loop and safety link. Yes, you can just use a knot to attach the safety link to the D-ring.

 

[Tseralo]

Freno is a dreadful bit of kit, in my opinion, it causes unnecessary wear on the stops frame is really snaggy and as pwhole says is in the wrong spot. Raumer Handy is the best breaking carabiner I've used.

As for cows tails, twist locks are worse than screw gates. You cant leave them screwed open if you do want to use it as a snap, they gum up with mud more readily than a screw and are hard to use one handed. If you want a locker use a screw gate and you will probably find you never screw it up anyway and move to small snaps like most of us.

 

[MJenkinson]

I remember starting up and setting my kit up as recommended here:

https://www.rucavers.co.uk/wp-content/resources/dachstein-srt-setup.pdf

Despite how "shouty" this guide is, it seemed like a good set up an and it served me very well. It has changed over the years though and mine is now as below:

I use a petzl harness, stomp the new orange ones into the mud a bit to stop the leg loops being so slippy.
I am long bodied / stumpy legged so use a bra style chest harness (MTDE Garma), very good for SRT bit bulkier than a torse type thing.
I use an old school steel D ring on my harness because its what I bought first and its not worn out.
I use a Petzl OK crab for stop and some old ratty steel screwgate I found in the garage for a braking crab.
Snap gates on cowstails.
My footloop is attached to hand jammer with a maillon (smaller than crab set up in the dachstein set up, easier to pack away, sometimes crab interfered with my croll when standing up)
As I don't always use a safety cord, I use my long cowstail for simpler trips / when I am not hauling a load of stuff, otherwise the safety cord is knotted onto my d ring and into the same maillon as my footloop when required.

My croll is also on a maillon then onto my d ring as I think it helps. This may well be nonsense though.
I don't use a pantin because a) I am tight and b) when I did try it turns out I am too uncoordinated to use one.

 

[hannahb]

I attach my descender to my central maillon using an alloy screwgate krab. I take it off and attach it to a gear loop when I'm not descending.

I have a Raumer Handy and I like it a lot. I use it with a Simple (no handle). When I used a Stop (old style blue one with a red handle), I had a steel oval krab for my braking krab, and I found that fine. The extra krab was often handy in various situations.

I have an oldish red Petzl Superavanti harness and I like it. Take care if you get an orange one. The straps are known to slip through the buckles on the leg loops even when doubled back. People at the BCA are looking into solutions to this problem. It has been suggested that it happens less once the fabric is roughened with use.

I don't have a Pantin and I get on fine, but I haven't done a lot of really deep caving. It might be easier and cheaper to start without one, but I would follow the lead of whoever you are learning from. People who use them seem to love them.

I would avoid twistlock karabiners for your cowstails. Perhaps you could go for one snapgate (on your short cowstail, and some people are now going for wiregates) and one screwgate (on your long cowstail) and see how you go. They both have their pros and cons.

Some people get on well with the cheaper chest jammer/Croll alternatives made by Climbing Technology. That could save you a bit of money.

For attaching your safety cord to your hand jammer, a screwgate karabiner or maillon will be fine. A karabiner has advantages in some rescue situations and gives you a neat way of clipping your hand jammer to a gear loop when you're not using it.

 

[topcat]

I have had an Omni Triact come undone and leave me hanging from one leg loop but it was probably a chance in a million sort of thing. But I don't use one now!

VF krabs for cows tail.......keep them maintained and clean in the streamway underground if necessary ( twice in ten years...)

Get a Pantin! I'd give up caving if I couldn'tt have one

I've sewn the leg loops on my orange Avanti.....

 

[Fjell]

The CT jammer cams are a copy of the old Petzl ones and will last longer. I used to (very eventually) throw chest jammers away because the body wore out, not the teeth. In my opinion do not buy the small Petzl chest jammer - I have one and it rarely gets used as it is a pain to use (and will wear out).

The MTDE Garma chest harness is def worth the investment. As is one of their sit harnesses if you intend to go to any sort of depth - very efficient. The Petzl Avanti I only use for short or tight trips or ones I am going to be taking it off a lot, and the ones we have now seem to slip in the buckle more than the old ones for reasons I can’t quite fathom or indeed find acceptable to be honest.

We use the Raumer Handy and it will last for ever probably. Gives total control on any rope and pitch length. My wife finds it a big improvement over a krab using a Stop as she is lighter (I know, seems counter-intuitive). Excellent investment. I use it for both Simple and Stop. Also prevents the top of the descender going into the braking krab. The Freino krab thing doesn’t seem right to me for a number of reasons.

I use a Pantin these days and it helps most of the time. Used with the MTDE harnesses gives probably the most effective rig I have ever used. I normally use an Amazonia now.

Basically Petzl seem to have lost the plot a bit on caving gear, it’s a tiny market and I think it’s just nostalgia or something.

 

[Brains]

Freno is a dreadful bit of kit, in my opinion, it causes unnecessary wear on the stops frame is really snaggy and as pwhole says is in the wrong spot. Raumer Handy is the best breaking carabiner I've used.

As for cows tails, twist locks are worse than screw gates. You cant leave them screwed open if you do want to use it as a snap, they gum up with mud more readily than a screw and are hard to use one handed. If you want a locker use a screw gate and you will probably find you never screw it up anyway and move to small snaps like most of us.

Wire gates are perfectly acceptable IMHO on cow tails.
I would avoid twist or other fancy locking styles and stick with a simple screw gate or snap gate.
I use a basic hand jammer as smaller and cheaper and the handle just gets in the way and promotes bad technique
I attach the basic with a one piece foot loop / safety cord via a screwgate, so as others has said it can act as a 3rd cows tail on awkward situations, and includes a one-step etrier at the same time.
A simple steel krab is perfect as a breaking krab.
Have fun!

 

[Brains]

You may find some useful ideas and thoughts in here...

Caving Hacks, or things you learn with age?

Thought I would start a thread to collate perhaps less obvious knowledge that an infrequent user or newcomers to a fresh skill set might find helpful. The hive was mind on here must be able to add many more, but here are a few things to be going on with... - The screw barrel on a harness...

ukcaving.com

 

[mikem]

Where are you based? As different countries have different ideas about best set ups...

 

[Tseralo]

Wire gates are perfectly acceptable IMHO on cow tails.
I would avoid twist or other fancy locking styles and stick with a simple screw gate or snap gate.
I use a basic hand jammer as smaller and cheaper and the handle just gets in the way and promotes bad technique
I attach the basic with a one piece foot loop / safety cord via a screwgate, so as others has said it can act as a 3rd cows tail on awkward situations, and includes a one-step etrier at the same time.
A simple steel krab is perfect as a breaking krab.
Have fun!

Oh don't worry I have had petzl Djins on my cowstails since day one. I just didn't want to open that can of worms. Its been argued to death.

 

[Norwegian]

Thanks for all the replies.

Noted on the freno, seems like a love it or hate it.

To begin with i do think i'd like a safety mechanism on the cowtail carabiners. I shall stay away from the twistlock as advised, and instead get some screwcarabiner. Still unsure weather to go for the Sm'D or the Am'D, size being the main difference it seems. Do people prefer bigger carabiners, are they perhaps easier to operate with gloves? The Petzl Vertigo did look intersting though, would perhaps put that on the short cowtail.

 

[Norwegian]

Where are you based? As different countries have different ideas about best set ups...

I am based in Norway.

 

[nobrotson]

If buying a new petzl harness, to mitigate the leg loop slipping issue that others have mentioned, buy the larger harness size, they should be the same price. You can cut off any unnecessary fabric after checking the tails at all the buckles will be long enough for you.