Swildons 20

[cucc Paul]

Has it ever been considered to put a second pitch on the left hand side of the 20 to speed up the pitch on busy days. It would be wetter but feasable. I know there are conservation issues to be considered, it might even help protect the calcite where the current ladder hang is. Just pondering dont mean to upset any one. Sorry if this is mentioned else where.

 

[The Masked Hobit]

before you know it we'll be talking about the merits of having a fixed ladder there.....

 

[graham]

Why do you need to put a fixed ladder on a free-climb?  :-\

 

[cap n chris]

Has it ever been considered to put a second pitch on the left hand side of the 20 to speed up the pitch on busy days.

Rather than altering the cave to suit cavers, cavers should alter themselves and speed up. The 20 is a numpty trap. There will always be numpties; two ladder pitches just means there would be even more cavers beyond the 20 on busy days, causing delays at other numpty traps such as the Double Pots, Sump 1 etc.. In practical terms it wouldn't help (in fact it would probably be arguably more risky) since where would the lifeliners locate themselves at the pitch head? - the rigging spaghetti opportunities would be four-fold and with two groups trying to both go in the same direction at the same time it would be ridiculous. Nah. Bag of rubbish. Keep it simple. Learn to enjoy queueing. Now, if you'd suggested going the whole hog and putting in a bolt traverse all the way round, high up, you'd have got my attention but it's a (guaranteed) safe bet that none of the dinosaurs would allow it and it would also be listed under the "turning caves into SRT playgrounds" reasons for vetoing.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Or how about blasting the stream bed into a nice gentle flight of steps, complete with handrail, and 'please keep to the left' signs?

 

[whitelackington]

Peter you'r talking my language

 

[Peter Burgess]

Peter you'r talking my language

English, I hope, unlike some others on this forum (see the "You know when your [sic] getting old" thread)

ONLY JOKING........ 

 

[axbridgecaver]

When I saw the subject of this post - SWILDONS 20 - I thought there had been a major breakthrough at sump 12 - perhaps one day

 

[Hatstand]

Why do you need to put a fixed ladder on a free-climb?  :-\

It might remove the risk of the ladder being removed prematurely......  :

...not that that ever happens of course.... 

That said if it had it might have led to a discussion as to the merits of a fixed ladder - I'm not sure, but I wouldn't mind one - I'm not a very good climber and not having to muck about with kit bags and ladders would be fab... ...if you want a numpty trap then why not put a lock on the... oh wait there already is one apparently...  :ang:

 

[cucc Paul]

Like Chris says how about some way of protecting the free climb for less competent climbers such as a high level traverse, like the ones in OFD then all you would need are cows tails and a belt and would avoid the rigging spagheti and the lack of space for people who are belaying. I do take on board the issues raised but after the ladder groups start heading off in different directions any how (sump1/short round). The sump is alot more quickly passed than the ladder as people like hanging on ladders but they dont like being stuck holding their breath under water. As for the double pots with a well organised leader and another competent caver there is no need for them to cause any delay at all and they just get treated as normal cave passage.

Fixed ladders are bad it will make the lower levels of the cave too accessable to true numpties on their own and create big eyesores. A cable traverse would be hard to remove prematurly any how.

And i like SRT playgrounds.

 

[mak]

I thought with the drop off in caver numbers that queuing at the 20 was now only a rare inconvenience for those incapable of free-climbing it.

 

[Peter Burgess]

When the 1968 flood removed the need to descend the 40 foot pitch, it rendered the formations in the lower part of Swildons 1 far more vulnerable to vandals and idiots - witness the recent damage in Trat's temple. How many of the normal crowd of cavers who visit Swildons today would be so inclined to do so if they had to negotiate both the 40 and the 20 on any trip? How about blocking up the Water Rift permanently with concrete, and re-instating the 40ft pitch?

 

[graham]

When the 1968 flood removed the need to descend the 40 foot pitch, it rendered the formations in the lower part of Swildons 1 far more vulnerable to vandals and idiots - witness the recent damage in Trat's temple. How many of the normal crowd of cavers who visit Swildons today would be so inclined to do so if they had to negotiate both the 40 and the 20 on any trip? How about blocking up the Water Rift permanently with concrete, and re-instating the 40ft pitch?

While acknowledging the truth of what you say, I rather suspect that this structure woudl be uninsurable under the "fixed aids" section of the BCA insurance policy. I for one would not wish to be downstream of it when (not if) it let go.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

There are two alternative rigs that have been used in the past to avoid queueing issues.  One is to climb up above the pitch and rig from the large stal column - this comes in above the normal ladder hang and occupies the same space - it is really only viable to use as an abseil route between ladder climbers. 
The other method is quite cunning - anchor the rope back to the old worn-stal belay (there are two threads that can be used here for safety) - then flick the rope over the dumpy stalagmite which is on the right a metre or so above the ladder head - attach to this with an Italian hitch and launch yourself off!  A pendulumn takes you to a ledge.  Get a good stance here.  Now flick the rope off the stal so that it pulls tight back to the belay.  Thread the end through a very convenient (and obvious) hole in the stal you are currently clinging on to.  Pull it tight and tie it off with several hitches.  You can now either use the tail to descend to the floor of the pitch or you can tie a fig 8 to connect a ladder.  The descent from here is about 3-4 metres against a smooth wall which can be free-climbed but not easily.  This gives you a traverse line and dry ladder hang without the use of a single bolt. Very useful if the cave is in flood.  And quite fun too.

 

[whitelackington]

I do not know if a certain type of fixed aid could be insured but a plastic coated steel cable zip wire could be installed.
It would make getting down the twenty, very quick but would not speed up the climb, especially if people became over excited by having "fun"in a cave and had forgotten to rig their ladder for their exit.

 

[graham]

There is a verse to the well-know song that starts:

Willie Stanton had an itch, Down Below
To improve the twenty pitch, Down Below​

I need to look the rest of it up, though.  :-[

 

[Clarie]

Is there a verse about bailing the mud-sump too?

 

[graham]

I can't find the bloody song-books. 

There are too many books in this house to keep track of. 

 

[cap n chris]

I do not know if a certain type of fixed aid could be insured but a plastic coated steel cable zip wire could be installed.
It would make getting down the twenty, very quick but would not speed up the climb, especially if people became over excited by having "fun"in a cave and had forgotten to rig their ladder for their exit.

... and where are the rotating knives?....

 

[Armchair]

... and where are the rotating knives?....
[/quote]

Did you say 'rotating knives'?