Switching from an ascension to a basic

[simonsays]

In an attempt to make my srt kit more compact I've decided to replace my handled ascender with a basic. I was able to get a mate to pick one up cheaply from go outdoors in Wigan and post it to me. Saved a tenner

Am I correct in assuming I need to adjust the lengths of the footloop *and* the connection to the harness by the same amount to compensate for the difference in length of the ascenders?
I'd just got to a point where I was happy with the tuning and could manage changeovers not exactly gracefully then certainly safely. I don't want to make my life on the 'nylon highway' any harder than it already is....

 

[cap n chris]

Hi Simon,

"In an attempt to make my srt kit more compact" you can start by getting rid of a Cord of Shame and adopting the long-standing Alpine Caving Techniques layout. That'll instantly streamline your set-up significantly. Your long cowstail should allow you to reach, with a slightly kinked arm, the basic.

The height of the vertical step on ascending is limited either by the length of your maximum leg extension (leg bone!) or maximium arm extension, depending on your build. There is thus no universal rule for adjusting an ascending system. Someone with long arms might be better off using a Basic rather than a handled jammer.

Adjusting the footloop length is done while standing with your foot in the loop (or feet, if not using a Pantin); when the footloop is stretched taut the top of the Croll should reach the bottom of the upper ascender cam. Fine tuning can be done on rope - the efficiency of your ascent depends on good adjustment. Technique/poise plays a big part, too.

Finally you might consider getting a new (2013) mini-basic and Croll which will make your rig very compact indeed since you can stow the basic/footloop in your oversuit pocket between pitches.

 

[damo8604]

Hi Chris

Could you elaborate please on the Alpine Caving Techniques layout?

What is 'the cord of shame'? I'm intrigued!

 

[cap n chris]

The ACT rig uses the long cowstail to connect to the footloop/jammer rather than using a third "safety cord" as shown in this old parchment:

This means your central maillon is less cluttered, since it only has a Croll, Stop/Simple and Cowstail attached to it. If it's about streamlining your rig then the well established (over a decade) ACT layout is a good one to adopt.

 

[Fulk]

Ho hum, methinks you might have opened (another) can of worms, Cap'n!

 

[ianball11]

Interesting name for the hand jammer/top jammer 

 

[cap n chris]

Ho hum, methinks you might have opened (another) can of worms, Cap'n!

Nope. Simon asked a question which was answered. Damo asked another one. Ditto. Alpine Caving Techniques' SRT layout being different from 1970s UK layout may be where worm can is located. Pointing to it is hardly the same as writing/creating it.

 

[Mike Hopley]

Alpine Caving Techniques' SRT layout being different from 1970s UK layout may be where worm can is located.

...and 2013 UK layout being the same as 1970s UK layout may indicate the worm can's vintage. 

 

[al]

What is 'the cord of shame'? I'm intrigued!

It's the safety cord which connects your big-D to your hand-jammer / foot-loop, and does a great job of preventing you from dropping these down the pitch.

It really would be a shame not to use one!!

 

[El Agreb]

Simon asked a question which was answered.

Was it?

Am I correct in assuming I need to adjust the lengths of the footloop *and* the connection to the harness by the same amount to compensate for the difference in length of the ascenders?

Wouldn't yes have done?

 

[hrock]

you still have a connection to your top jammer when it is in use. but that connection is your long cows tail instead of a dedicated cord. it is a good system and has served the rest of the world well.

that said i don't use it. i have one pice of rope to my D one side of the knot is my "cord of shame" and the other is my long cows tail. then my short cows tail is a quick draw sling its nice and tidy and gets rid of one of the knots on your D with out  loosing the ability to do fancy things like bolt climb.  (yes i know you can bolt climb with out it but i dont like too)

oh and most of the time i use my safety cord as my long cows tail as it already has a foot loop on it saving me cliping in more things when doing proper srt (that is free hanging)

then my long cows tail by name dose not that much most of the time.

 

[Mike Hopley]

then my short cows tail is a quick draw sling its nice and tidy

...just be aware that your short cowstail is almost 100% static, and has no knots -- so it will not absorb force in a fall. This could be very bad in certain situations. And by "very bad", I mean "fatal".

 

[hrock]

yes but it is my short cows tail its for sitting on not falling on like the long ones. but yes your right you do have to be a bit selective as to witch is appropriate to clip in where etc but that is the case with all srt.

 

 

[Pete K]

When moving along a traverse line and needing to pass a knot/anchor you will need to leave your short cowstail on whilst moving the long one. If you are using a dyneema (or sling of similar material) for your short cowstail then you are at risk of a drop on to a very undynamic component. Slings are dangerous to use in this way, fact.
I'd have a look at the DMM website if you need more evidence: http://dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/how-to-break-nylon-dyneema-slings/.
Also don't be fooled by the existence of sling like cowstail all in one units, they may be strong but tests have shown that they deliver higher impact forces to the body of the caver and other system components in a dynamic fall. Still arguably safe to use but I'd rather have a springy landing and not jar my back on a big whipper.

There is no reason why a quickdraw type attachment can't be used for positioning too, just don't fall on it.

 

[hrock]

if you are sitting on it you are not at risk of a drop
if the bolt fails then the travers line is semi static and will do more shock absorbing than 20cm of dynamic rope 

the problem you are thinking of come from climbers joining bits of gear together with slings and then straight into there harness 
i only have one sling and clip it in to ropes if it or what it is attached to fails i will fall on to my long cows tail
and if my long cows tail fails then i will still be just sitting there in the same place

this is the quick draw in question
http://www.hitchnhike.co.uk/acatalog/nylon_quickdraw_slings.html

 

[pwhole]

I found the best compromise was tying the cowstails rope-access style with a small central loop between the two tails, and adding a snapgate there, so I have three cowstails effectively, with the central one an 'ultra-short' for downward hanging rebelays. Not much shock absorbency on that one, but then it does have a knot at each end which would take some shock. It also makes vertical traverses easier as it keeps me very close to the rope, and gives me two additional points of contact with which to pass rebelays.

I'd rather keep a safety cord for my jammer, as I don't want to lose a cowstail if I ever need one, and I don't want to lose my jammer either. I found the best compromise for upward rebelays is just to have a steel krab hanging from my jammer-maillon knot, and clip that into the bolts for standing in my footloop.

 

[simonsays]

Hi all, thanks as always for the replies.

In the end I just lengthened the foot loop and the safety link by a couple of inches to compensate for the difference in length of the two ascenders. Seems to work fine.

I did consider the long cowstail/'cord of shame' attachment for the jammer but I really am still early on in the learning curve and I'm going to stick with what I have setup for the minute.

 

[paul]

I did consider the long cowstail/'cord of shame' attachment for the jammer but I really am still early on in the learning curve and I'm going to stick with what I have setup for the minute.

Very wise. Whether you have a dedicated safety link from your central maillon to your top jammer or use a long cowstail, there are pros and cons to each choice. Use whatever you find works best for you.

 

[Jon]

you can start by getting rid of a Cord of Shame and adopting the long-standing Alpine Caving Techniques layout.

Chris, am I correct in thinking you are a CIC? If so, doesn't the hand jammer tether come in useful in some of the rescues and if you don't have one, what do you do instead?

 

[cap n chris]

doesn't the hand jammer tether come in useful in some of the rescues

In the last ten years or so mid rope rescue methods have been taken over by significantly easier methods than those originally taught when the old-style SRT layout was current.

Granted, the "convert your footloop to a 2:1 to aid lifting the casualty off their croll" situation is a reason why you might still wish to use a CoS, although that too has been replaced by alternative methods. Get yourself a copy of ACT to find out more - also, there's even newer stuff which isn't in ACT in which case you might wish to get BCA to fund a CIC-delivered mid rope rescue training session to get an insight into even more.

However, surely for CICs isn't there a VERY strong case to be made for teaching newcomers SRT in accordance with the most authoritative and up-to-date (even though it's over a decade old) manual (i.e. Alpine Caving Techniques), rather than replicating a cumbersome, prone-to-entanglement/hang-ups, superceded forty+ year old layout which seems to me to be mostly in vogue because people pass on what they were told by someone who passed on what they were told by someone who passed on what they were told etc.. ?

Having used both layouts I'm a HUGE fan of the ACT/French layout which wins hands down from my personal experience, both in use and simplicity for training.