cap n chris
Well-known member
It has long been established that the right to roam is not the right to cave. Having seen the open access land maps for Mendip a couple of years back it's all a bit silly, really, since the designated land under the CROW Act is about the size of a handkerchief. Mind you that probably won't stop the ultra-hardcore ramblers from crawling over broken glass to claim their right to go there.
langcliffe
Well-known member
Thanks for that information. I am delighted to hear that there has already been a definitive opinion on the subject. Can you also let us know by whom and with what authority?
graham
New member
stu said:
So here we go again. The person who owns the land surface almost invariably owns the caves beneath them.
I can think of one very good reason why caves should not be included in CROW. If the presence of a cave entrance automatically guarantees access rights then no owner of access land is ever going to allow another surface dig on their land.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Hi Langcliffe; I've organised a meeting with our AONB Senior Warden this afternoon to check the Access land maps for Mendip but he also confirmed the above statement. The specific clause is:
"Any person is entitled … to enter and remain on any access land for the purposes of open-air recreation…. Section (s) 2(1) of CROW, England and Wales". It's the "open-air" wording which allows climbing but not caving.
langcliffe
Well-known member
Which comes back to my original point that this phrase has yet to be interpreted in a court of law, yet. The Act itself has nothing further to say on this point other than what I previously quoted. It is only the judiciary that can provide a definitive interpretation of the wording - not DEFRA, and not the AONB Senior Warden.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Well, off you go and get it interpreted in a court of law. (*]
rich
New member
cap 'n chris said:
That could be interpreted either way. I wish people (from both sides of the argument) would stop expressing such certainty on the issue while the status of caves are clearly still undefined.
A google search for "caving" within www.countryside.gov.uk/ comes back with one relevant result, a question at a meeting:
Jon Beavan, Settle: "Caving and potholing open air recreation?"
http://www.countryside.gov.uk/LAR/Recreation/NCAF/16thNCAF_minutes.asp
The answer isn't recorded though!
Has anyone tried asking the Countryside Agency?
rich
New member
graham said:
A reasonable point. But it would presumably only apply to land that could already be freely accessed because of CRoW, so the only difference would be whether people would have a right to actually go underground once they've reached the cave entrance.
Assuming cave access does come under the Act, it might raise the question of the legality of gating certain caves.
langcliffe
Well-known member
<i>Has anyone tried asking the Countryside Agency?</i>
What's the point? The Countryside Agency's interpretation is going to be no more binding than anybody else's at this stage. The executive has no power to provide a definitive interpretation of the wording of an Act of Parliament - only the judiciary can do that.
Unfortunately, such ambiguity isn't unusual for legislation passed in the last few years. For example, it is impossible for an organization to know whether or not it is conforming to the 1995 Disability Discrimination Act unless it is taken to the High Court, and the judge finds in its favour.
What's the point? The Countryside Agency's interpretation is going to be no more binding than anybody else's at this stage. The executive has no power to provide a definitive interpretation of the wording of an Act of Parliament - only the judiciary can do that.
Unfortunately, such ambiguity isn't unusual for legislation passed in the last few years. For example, it is impossible for an organization to know whether or not it is conforming to the 1995 Disability Discrimination Act unless it is taken to the High Court, and the judge finds in its favour.
cap n chris
Well-known member
It appears, then, that there is no point either in asking questions such as "what are cavers allowed to do?". If this is the case, presumably the whole topic is now closed until precedents are set; in which case we can stop this thread.
langcliffe
Well-known member
That's certainly one possible conclusion. Another is that people could read the relevent parts of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, in particular Sections 2.1 and Schedule 2, and come to their own conclusions, possibly after discussion with others.
Discussions do not have to come up with definitive answers - they are also useful for casting new light on a topic, as, for example, George North's higlighting of paragraph 1(h) of Schedule 2 of the Act.
JJ
Member
I am very clear as is the Yorkshire Dales National Park that caving is not included as a right under CROW legisaltion.
However the debate so far does not mention one fact of the CROW legislation. A landowner of access land can dedicate his/her land for any other recrecreational activity - including caving. The important thing is that this then reduces the landowners liability right down to that which would apply with common trespess. This is an important consideration for landowners who already allow open access to their caves and may encourage others to do likewise.
However the debate so far does not mention one fact of the CROW legislation. A landowner of access land can dedicate his/her land for any other recrecreational activity - including caving. The important thing is that this then reduces the landowners liability right down to that which would apply with common trespess. This is an important consideration for landowners who already allow open access to their caves and may encourage others to do likewise.
rich
New member
langcliffe said:
Well I thought there might have been some sort of previously established convention on what the words mean -- or something!
But I asked the CA and it looks like you're right. They initially said caving was not covered under the legislation, but when I asked how that was decided, they backtracked and said it was for the courts to decide whether it was covered or not.
It's official: CROW doesn't apply to caving (at least in Wales). The Countryside Council for Wales has issued advice on the CROW act, which includes the following statement:
What does the new right NOT include?
It doesn't include riding a horse or a bicycle or driving a vehicle or certain other activities such as camping, swimming or caving – but these limitations on the new right do not prevent an owner or occupier of land allowing these activities.
For more information:
To get free advice on the new public right of access to open country and registered common land, copies of publications and ideas on other enjoyment opportunities in the countryside visit www.ccw.gov.uk or call CCW on 0845 130 6229.
What does the new right NOT include?
It doesn't include riding a horse or a bicycle or driving a vehicle or certain other activities such as camping, swimming or caving – but these limitations on the new right do not prevent an owner or occupier of land allowing these activities.
For more information:
To get free advice on the new public right of access to open country and registered common land, copies of publications and ideas on other enjoyment opportunities in the countryside visit www.ccw.gov.uk or call CCW on 0845 130 6229.
langcliffe
Well-known member
martinr said:
That is simply their interpretation of the Act. As discussed above, only the judiciary can come up with a definitive statement of the law.