the knave OFD

[Charlie]

I am getting a bit tired of running the same routes in OFD with groups of novices and was looking for something diffrent. Can anyone give me a description of the tackle I would need to get a group into the OFD streamway by the knave this weekend?

Info about length of ladder, lifeline, slings and/or any access restrictions would be appreciated.

Cheers
Charlie

 

[Ship-badger]

They're not novices really are they?

A good trip is to abseil down the Knave, pulling down as you go. Then go up to Top Waterfall for a look. Then downstream and out up Maypole Inlet. Do it this way and all you need is a few slings and krabs and a 30m rope, plus your personal gear.

 

[NigR]

Hi Charlie,

Main pitch (marked on survey as 12m) into the Nave needs about 40 ft of ladder with natural belay on right. There is a second, shorter pitch after this (not marked on survey) - 15 ft of ladder would be useful. Both pitches can be free-climbed in the reverse direction (the larger one with some difficulty) in the event of an emergency - something worth bearing in mind if you are ever stuck in the Second Oxbow and the Main Streamway is flooding.

As Ship-badger points out, a good little trip is to abseil down the Nave and then return via Maypole Inlet. A longer, more challenging route is to free-climb Pendulum Passage (placing protection as required) returning via the Crevasse.

Regarding access restrictions, only the usual OFD ones apply - i.e. you need a permit and must limit your party size. However, none of the trips mentioned here should be regarded as suitable for complete novices.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Nig

 

[damian]

Hi, Charlie,

Really quite well decorated at the bottom of the Nave - worth going down just to come back up, I think. You can rig it all on naturals .. I think I showed you the threads last Saturday.

D.

 

[cap n chris]

OFD trips are undertaken on a permit; does the permit specify cavers must belong to a club? (i.e. insured, i.e. paid-up i.e. NOT a newbie who has yet to join).

If non-paid-up-potential-club-members* are allowed in OFD, can commercial operators take newcomers into the cave?

Is a distinction drawn between a novice being led by a club caver and a novice being led by a professional caver, i.e. the former is acceptable whereas the latter is barred?

Is this a big wooden spoon being thrust into a hornet's nest? I'm happy to remove this post if it's likely to cause upset.


* Is this the same thing as a "novice", as described in the OP?

 

[damian]

OFD trips are undertaken on a permit; does the permit specify cavers must belong to a club? (i.e. insured, i.e. paid-up i.e. NOT a newbie who has yet to join).

If non-paid-up-potential-club-members* are allowed in OFD, can commercial operators take newcomers into the cave?

Is a distinction drawn between a novice being led by a club caver and a novice being led by a professional caver, i.e. the former is acceptable whereas the latter is barred?

I think you'll find that access is available to members of clubs that are members of one of the Regional Councils. There are no rules about novices, to my knowledge, although there are plenty of rules about looking after the cave and too many novices, poorly looked after will obviously contravene these.

I summise from this that people being led by a professional caver cannot have access unless they happen to be club members (or temporary club members - which might be the way to do it??)

Somebody will know better than me, though.

 

[Peter Burgess]

'tsall 'ere.

http://www.swcc.org.uk/caving/access/ofd.php

 

[cap n chris]

Thanks; it appears that there are no concerns re novices, whether people are insured, whether indeed they are even members of a club and certainly no mention of professional cavers leading groups. Remarkably unfettered, in fact.

 

[NigR]

OFD trips are undertaken on a permit; does the permit specify cavers must belong to a club? (i.e. insured, i.e. paid-up i.e. NOT a newbie who has yet to join).

If non-paid-up-potential-club-members* are allowed in OFD, can commercial operators take newcomers into the cave?

* Is this the same thing as a "novice", as described in the OP?

Insurance is not required for trips into OFD, so it does not matter if someone is a fully paid-up club member or not on this score. However, it has always been the case (with Annual Permits) that at least half the party must belong to the club in whose name the permit is issued.

Commercial caving has never been allowed in OFD.

 

[Charlie]

.. I think I showed you the threads last Saturday.

You did, I just couldn't remember what equipment you said was needed.

If non-paid-up-potential-club-members*
* Is this the same thing as a "novice", as described in the OP?

we get round that by making sure they all pay membership and trip fees in advance 

Thanks for the help guys 

 

[cap n chris]

Commercial caving has never been allowed in OFD.

Is there no mention of this in the access info web page for a reason?

 

[NigR]

Commercial caving has never been allowed in OFD.

Is there no mention of this in the access info web page for a reason?

No idea why this is not mentioned in the access info web page - if there is a reason I cannot imagine what it could be.

All I can say is that in the 35 years I have been visiting OFD, commercial caving has not, so far as I am aware, been allowed in any shape or form. I would be very surprised, saddened and annoyed if this was no longer the case.

Suggest you contact the OFD Permit Secretary directly for clarification if you are in any doubt about this.

 

[Cookie]

Commercial caving has never been allowed in OFD.

Is there no mention of this in the access info web page for a reason?

[quote author="Ogof Ffynnon Ddu I - Leaders Rules"]
  2. All parties shall be accompanied by a Leader appointed by the S.W.C.C. Committee. No Leader may take in a party which is organised on behalf of an organisation deriving profit from the venture unless he/she has, in advance, obtained in writing the permission of the owner/S.W.C.C. for that particular visit. [/quote] 



Maybe if your write, but I can guess the answer.

 

[cap n chris]

Why not extend that which is written re OFD I to the rest of the system? (p.s. thanks, Cookie, for the paste). I might just perhaps maybe write and ask but this is only a bijou trollette so I possibly might not, sleeping dogs 'n all that.

 

[biffa]

Why not extend that which is written re OFD I to the rest of the system?

The access for OFD1 is different from the other entrances because of OFD1 being on land belonging to Y Griffig where as the rest of the entrances lie on land belonging to Countryside Council for Wales.  Whilst the SWCC committee administers access to OFD1 in combination with the landowner it does not do the same for the other entrances.

Permits for OFD Top Entrance and Cwm Dwr are granted by the OFD permit secretary independently of SWCC.  All SWCC does is provide a means of obtaining keys (and provides excellent showers after a caving trip!).  These conditions for CCW access are agreed (I think) by the OFD Management Committee who meet a couple of times a year.

 

[NigR]

Not really sure how commercial caving ever became the focus of this thread but as it has let's not beat about the bush.

It should be patently obvious to anyone with a modicum of common sense why commercial caving is not allowed in OFD - i.e. if it was allowed the place would be even more trashed than it already is.

The ill-advised decision to open up Top Entrance in the first place, although possibly understandable at the time, was a major disaster so far as the long-term conservation of the underlying cave system is concerned. Everything that has been done since, including all the rules and regulations regarding access, are merely a pretty ineffectual damage limitation exercise.

As things stand, the cave is, in my opinion, vastly over-used by cavers conducting the same old tourist trips week after week, year after year. The only redeeming factor in this is that the overwhelming majority of these stick to the major trade-routes, all of which were ruined long ago so it doesn't really matter. However, not far off these trade-routes, unseen by most tourist cavers in their haste to do the trip in record time so they can make the pub, there still exist many wonderful formations. In some cases these are exceedingly delicate and are very, very vulnerable. If commercial caving were ever allowed there is no doubt that the existence of these formations would be under threat.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Not really sure how commercial caving ever became the focus of this thread but as it has let's not beat about the bush.

It should be patently obvious to anyone with a modicum of common sense why commercial caving is not allowed in OFD - i.e. if it was allowed the place would be even more trashed than it already is.

The ill-advised decision to open up Top Entrance in the first place, although possibly understandable at the time, was a major disaster so far as the long-term conservation of the underlying cave system is concerned. Everything that has been done since, including all the rules and regulations regarding access, are merely a pretty ineffectual damage limitation exercise.

As things stand, the cave is, in my opinion, vastly over-used by cavers conducting the same old tourist trips week after week, year after year. The only redeeming factor in this is that the overwhelming majority of these stick to the major trade-routes, all of which were ruined long ago so it doesn't really matter. However, not far off these trade-routes, unseen by most tourist cavers in their haste to do the trip in record time so they can make the pub, there still exist many wonderful formations. In some cases these are exceedingly delicate and are very, very vulnerable. If commercial caving were ever allowed there is no doubt that the existence of these formations would be under threat.

What a thoroughly depressing and negative view this is of:

1. 'commercial' caving - a gross and damning generalisation.

2. an agreed access arrangement that has served cavers and conservation bodies well for many years.

3. 'tourist' caving - (we've been here before I think).

Thank goodness there are still plenty of 'tourist' cavers who do appreciate the caves they visit, and are content to look and wonder without having a 'real' purpose for their visit.

 

[jasonbirder]

the cave is, in my opinion, vastly over-used by cavers conducting the same old tourist trips week after week, year after year

Yes...damn those cavers...enjoying themselves...in would you believe it...Caves 

 

[mrodoc]

I suppose I could be describe as a tourist caver but have been touring for the last 40 years. I do relatively little digging, like seeing some nice cave scenery and take pictures.  Perhaps the reference to tourists should perhaps better refer to transients who are taken caving but don't actually follow the sport for that long who are keen to tick off all the major routes.  You could run an entire thread on this issue.

Regarding the Nave (misspelt on thread) we did an excellent pull through on Saturday. Fine cave scenery with a nice bit of streamway up to Top Waterfall. Shame I had a wobbly moment finding my way out of the top of Maypole!

 

[Jopo]

From NigR

The ill-advised decision to open up Top Entrance in the first place, although possibly understandable at the time, was a major disaster so far as the long-term conservation of the underlying cave system is concerned. Everything that has been done since, including all the rules and regulations regarding access, are merely a pretty ineffectual damage limitation exercise.

A difficult circle to square this.

Spend a vast amount of time and effort looking for new caves - including the back way into DYO - and then denigrate those who  have the temerity to cave.

How would you police it Nig - if you were ever fortunate enough to pioneer the DYO through trip?

Who grants exclusivity?

But life is complicated. I agree with Nig and anyone else who regards commercial caving in OFD as an anathema.

Jopo