The NSS, conservation, and the sacrificial cave.

[Bob Mehew]

I do not know who specifically Bob is "accusing" of pedantry,

I assure you that it was not aimed at you.  I just had a hand in producing a document and the only comment which came back was on the misuse of an apostrophe; fair enough in one respect, but a bit soul destroying given all the effort that had gone into producing it.

I agree with the concept of sacrificial caves and thanks for the link to SCCi.

 

[bograt]

The concept of 'sacrificial caves' has been debated for many years in the Peak District, no official policy has been decided (IMO, quite rightly). But we have the local cave leadership community on board and in agreement with where novices should be taken.
These systems should be used to demonstrate the damage that can be caused, as an education.

I am of the opinion that if someone progresses to the status of 'proper caver', then causes damage, then it is that 'caver' who should be sacrified, not the cave --.

Maybe some 'before & after' pictures could be used as an education help? (thinking here of JSB's pics of Gimli's dream, or the present debacle in Hunters?)

 

[AR]

Or the White River Series - there was discussion in the UCF of getting hold of some of PD's photos taken shortly after discovery, and some of the shots taken before the recent clean-up and laminating them, then putting this at the entrance as a "this is why you should stick to the taped route and not drag your mucky tackle bag along the floor" notice.

 

[Kenilworth]

Just let drones explore caves rather than humans. After a risk assessment of course.

You're joking I reckon, but there is potential to use drones to conserve. For the past few years, I have asked a lot of questions about using them to check for high leads. To use drones to rule out or confirm the "necessity" of a bolt-climb could be a valuable conservation method. If a dome could be observed to have no leads, cavers could save themselves gear, time, and money, and save the cave from unnecessary bolting and unnecessary bolting trips.

The real question is: Will it work? No one in the US has used drones for this purpose, that I am aware of, and I fear that there are good reasons for this. Problems with lighting, scale, and the difficulties of underground flight may make such efforts a waste of time in all but the perfect cases.

I've been waiting for someone else to pioneer this idea in practice, being a poor boy. But since I have two projects with ideal passages, and since prices for adequate quadcopters have fallen, I'm going for it. Within the month I'll have some results, good, bad or otherwise.

 

[cap n chris]

Just let drones explore caves rather than humans. After a risk assessment of course.

... For the past few years, I have asked a lot of questions about using them to check for high leads. To use drones to rule out or confirm the "necessity" of a bolt-climb could be a valuable conservation method. If a dome could be observed to have no leads, cavers could save themselves gear, time, and money, and save the cave from unnecessary bolting and unnecessary bolting trips...

The real question is: Will it work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5hM2rfyay0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FJiYss1B4g

 

[badger]

I do not like the use of "sacrificial cave" however it is a fact that certain caves "Goatchurch, Mendips" lend themselves to a high level of cavers, especially Novices. Us, You, as leaders can educate as best you can novices before entering any system, unfortunately what we cant do is have eyes everywhere at all times and actually stop 1 idiot doing something completely against all what you have spoken about (cave conservation) so the likes of Goatchurch get spoilt from the weight of numbers, even if every person went down was 100% conservation minded it would still not stop the wear and tear shown.
It has also been demonstrated many times that locks, permits, warden lead, and other permantation you care to think of leads to perfect cave conservation,  HLIS being a prime example,
there is in my mind a place for drone technology to be used in caving, however we do need to be mindful that the driver (is the right word?) needs to have the right level of expertise,
there is plenty of things and advice on how we as cavers should/can limit the damage we cause, and those that put this high on there cave ethos need to try and make other cavers value this ethos as well.
common sense is a great word and unfortunately has a different understanding from individual to individual
Bob is also right in climate change, who knows what will happen in caves in a 1000 years time and what we have done today will effect it then, as humans we not done a good job in looking after our planet.
in the end there is only one true conservation for caves and that is no humans allowed,
obviously that not a realistic option.

 

[Kenilworth]

Thanks for the drone videos Chris, I hadn't seen the first one, which was very useful. Their conclusion was that they needed more light and a better camera. Encouragingly, I have both. I've gotten to know a dealer in drones, and rc cars and planes over the past few years, and have been able to get a decent product at a good price with his help.

Second video is visually stunning, but it's in a show-lit cave, and gives few clues as to the possibility of drone reconnaissance.

 

[Kenilworth]

Badger, get out of the ol' box!

You're saying the same tired things that cavers have been saying for decades now.

Cavers have resigned themselves to the current state of care. This is understandable, but it is not ecologically or aesthetically or culturally responsible. If we are not willing to change our ways of thinking and acting on these matters, we had well better quit calling ourselves conservationists. Hypocrisy is uglier than ignorance.

I cannot imagine why anyone would object to the sort of sacrificial cave I've tried to describe.

in the end there is only one true conservation for caves and that is no humans allowed,
obviously that not a realistic option

Another very tired claim that comes from our being too lazy to educate ourselves and to accept moral responsibility. And a false one. Cave conservation is not the avoidance of human impact on the cave, just as general conservation of the planet would not require us to "leave no trace" on its surface.

 

[badger]

sorry if I completely misunderstood your opening statement, and actually what I thought I stated was not the same old same old,  however being a simple person I must of misunderstood.
but you talk about conservation but from your statement above I am confused (as I say I am a simple person) but from what I am reading your saying is your not actually about conservation. or your saying you are cause caving is conservation, by us changing the cave ecology every we time we enter. or not.
cave conservation is high on my priorities and understand that my action on entering and being in a cave alters its ecology.