The stagnation of Caving: A brief essay

Status
Not open for further replies.

Kenilworth

New member
Ian Adams said:
Kenilworth said:
I believe that a stagnation of Caving, even one leading to extinction, would be a net positive.


Hard to interpret that differently  :blink:

Ian

Hm. Perhaps taking the context into account would help.
In the original post above I stated that there will always be cavers and communities of cavers. It is right that this is so.
My comments about the acceptability, even desirability, of caving's stagnation are directed at institutionalized caving, a bulky phrase that I used too many times above. In the sentence that you quote, I attempted to introduce some variety by using capitalization to indicate the sort of caving I was talking about.
 

Ian Adams

Active member
The context (and your explanation above) do not contradict your philosophy.

Neither do they undermine the value you attach to your statement that the extinction of caving would be a net positive.

Ian





*Edited typo
 

pwhole

Well-known member
But I think that caves are too singular and irreparable to be used as mere gyms.

This statement (as a condensed summary of what I feel may be your main point) made perfect sense in the context, and I agree with that, certainly. The issue I suppose is the degree to which one agrees with or opposes that view.
 

Kenilworth

New member
Ian Adams said:
The context (and your explanation above) do not contradict your philosophy.

Neither do they undermine the value you attach to your statement that the extinction of caving would be a net positive.

Ian

Sorry Ian, I'm not understanding you. The extinction of institutionalized caving and a "100% conservation process" are not the same thing.
 

Ian Adams

Active member
Kenilworth said:
The extinction of institutionalized caving and a "100% conservation process" are not the same thing.


Aren't they?  Even if we take into account semantics they both nestle into your philosophy and support the point you are making.

Ian
 

Kenilworth

New member
Ian Adams said:
Kenilworth said:
The extinction of institutionalized caving and a "100% conservation process" are not the same thing.


Aren't they?  Even if we take into account semantics they both nestle into your philosophy and support the point you are making.

Ian

Then I'm not making my point very well. I have absolutely zero interest in a 100% conservation process. Unless I misunderstand your phrase
 

paul

Moderator
NewStuff said:
Oceanrower said:
I got told off when I suggested he do that......
:spank:

I'm plenty gobby, and used to it, much to the owners dismay. My opinion stands, he's mental.

[gmod]You have already had a warning. This is a discussion Forum and users can discuss whatever issue to do with caving they wish to. If you do not agree with someone else's view, then by all means put forward an argument against it. Swearing, calling names or other personal attacks will never win that argument. [/gmod]
 

Ian Adams

Active member
Kenilworth said:
Then I'm not making my point very well. I have absolutely zero interest in a 100% conservation process. Unless I misunderstand your phrase


I don't know how you have "read" my post.

The "extinction of caving" and "a 100% conservation process" are synonymous.

How can you champion one cause and have a zero interest in the other?


Ian
 

Kenilworth

New member
Ian, I have zero interest in the extinction of cave exploration, documentation, cultural or communal use. I simply believe that the organized recreational institution of caving, made up in the US of grottos and conservancies etc., does more harm than good, and this is the Caving that I think we could do without.
 

Ian Adams

Active member
Kenilworth said:
I have zero interest in the extinction of cave exploration


Kenilworth said:
I believe that a stagnation of Caving, even one leading to extinction, would be a net positive.


It is very difficult to reconcile those two statements. I did believe you were genuinely trying to get across a bona fide philosophy.

Now, however, I am left think as some others do; that you are trolling.

:confused:

Ian
 

royfellows

Well-known member
I dont think trolling, just takes life far to seriously.

Like DFC posted, just enjoy life. That certainly will not last forever.
 

David Rose

Active member
Only yesterday, in a rural area under threat of the complete loss of community, which also has some pastures and streams, I did a terrible thing, and having lain awake all night, racked with guilt, I see no choice but to make a full confession.

First, the area to which I refer: the Yorkshire Dales National Park. What is this threat? First, the creeping gentrification so obviously visible at places such as Kirkby Lonsdale. What has this market town become? A fleshpot of upscale restaurants, serving drinks made from fruits grown far away, in places such as Italy and Australia. And a posh Booths supermarket, too. A little distance away, in Casterton, there is a pub that has a speciality premium GIN MENU. What could be more decadent, more destructive of the traditional way of life?

And who is to blame? Cavers, of course: the tens of thousands who pour in every weekend, forever altering this once peaceful region with their uncouth habits and demands, which originate in the nearby megalapolises such as Preston and Morecambe. (To which there is now a bypass, enabling Dales cavers to visit Sainsbury's and so import yet more alien culture, such as mangoes and fresh olives.)

So what did I do? I went caving. Actually, since full disclosure is the order of the day, I went with Badlad (!) and a group of other intruders into the pristine spaces below the earth, including my own impressionable son. And if that were not serious enough, we carried scaffolding poles to a "dig" - a blockage of rocks that Badlad and his friends hope to remove so making an existing system even longer.

If that enterprise succeeds, it can only lead to  still more cavers being attracted, like faeces-covered flies, to this vulnerable location. It is doomed, clearly, and I have somehow to deal with the fact that I have hastened its ruin, despoiling the countryside both and above ground. Commmunities face annihiliation. Oh, the shame of it.

Thank you Kenilworth, for opening my eyes.

(That's enough feeble satire - Ed.)
 

Kenilworth

New member
Thank you Kenilworth, for opening my eyes. 

Any time, brotherman.  ;)
If any of those access threads you were so passionate about were still active, maybe I could craft some weak satire of my own.

Can't freeze me out Git, I don't depend entirely on you folks for my inspiration

Ian, I'm no philosopher, and I don't know what bona fide means, but do you really believe that all cave exploration takes place under the governance of clubs? Anyway, I've got nothing to gain from provoking a lot of strangers, and that's way too easy a task to be an ego-trip.

Hmm. How does one know when he is taking life too seriously? Is the avoidance of difficult thought the only way to enjoy life? I thought I was enjoying myself quite a lot, but perhaps I've been wrong.

--

If you all need a break though, I can give you one. I have much mapping and digging planned for the rest of the month, so probably I'll have something less vexatious to write about in a few days.



 

NewStuff

New member
paul said:
You have already had a warning. This is a discussion Forum and users can discuss whatever issue to do with caving they wish to. If you do not agree with someone else's view, then by all means put forward an argument against it. Swearing, calling names or other personal attacks will never win that argument.

He's *trolling*, not arguing. He saw the initial argument went nowhere, and now he's trying to get us worked up. If you want rid of trolls you don't feed them (Others continue to) or you let them know, in no uncertain terms, that you know what they're up to.

Feel free to give me a holiday if you don't like my reasoning, but I'm not pandering to the troll.
 

royfellows

Well-known member
I now think it has gone that way.
Sorry Mr K, but my advice to all: Abandon the thread.

I'm out for starters.
 

Alex

Well-known member
I don't follow, not sure what Kelinworth's point is? Not sure why he is making his point here in the UK either?

Oh well got far too much to do to be worried about whatever nonsesense this is. Seems to be a lot on here recently such that thread whats titled commercial caving that seems to have nothing to do with the subject, not sure what its about to be honest? Can we get back to caving talk, for example what about Car pot anchors someone has asked, I for one want to know, but useful stuff like that appears to be missing its all drivval nowadays it appears.

Seriously most people with intersting information I bet don't post on here anymore. Thank goodness for CNCC effort (Wrong thread I know, but thanks for the effort with the descs and topos!)
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
Fundamentally it is hypocritical of Kenilworth to argue that caving should decrease and then continue to go caving.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top