The Three Counties System

[andymorgan]

I have heard about the '3 counties system', but I am not entirely sure what it is and what caves are (or would be) part of it. It is my understanding that it would be the mega system created if several master caves are linked up. Is it the potential for Lancs-Easegill-Pipikin, Lost Johns-Notts, Ireby Cavern, and the Kingsdale Master Cave to link up?

 

[langcliffe]

Plus Low Douk, Rift Pot, and Large Pot between Ireby and Keld Head. KMC obviously includes King Pot in this context. On the other side, it would include Aygill.

 

[Mr Fell]

I believe the concept of such a system was first proposed by Dave Brook in the 60`s

 

[langcliffe]

Dave Brook, 1968, "The Three Counties System", ULSA Review No. 3, pp. 15-19

 

[Mr Fell]

So there you are 

 

[Pitlamp]

You may also be interested to consult an article by the other Dave Brook, written in the early 70s (if I remember rightly) about the possibility of a "Trans Craven System" in an issue of Descent magazine.  (Get it from the relevant Descent index - or perhaps someone who has this could post the reference?)  The idea was that there may exist undiscovered fossil passages, unrelated to modern day topography, linking the existing major drainage systems - and that one day these may all be physically linked into a supersystem over 200 miles long extending from Casterton Fell (or even Barbondale) right over to Littondale or Wharfedale.

Many cavers thought it was a bit far fetched at the time but it's quite thought provoking to ponder on the many "impossible" links which have successfully been made since Dave's article.  For example Kingsdale is now crossed by the East Kingsdale Branch of Keld Head (connecting with King Pot) and Ribblesdale has been at least hydrologically crossed as Alum Pot drains to Turn Dub, as does Penyghent Long Churn (tested late 70s by the late and great Dick Glover).

There's everything to dig for . . . . . . . .

 

[andymorgan]

Thanks for the replies, I will try to obtain the articles. Are any of these systems proved to link hydrologically? I'm pretty sure I have heard Lancs-Easegill-Pipikin (and Aygill, Bullpot of the Witches), Lost Johns-Notts, Ireby Cavern are linked this way.

 

[Pitlamp]

Yes - each is tested to Leck Beck Head.  The major resurgences going eastwards from there are (respectively) Keld Head, God's Bridge, Clapham Beck Head, Austwick Beck Head, Turn Dub and Brants Gill Head.  Further east than Fountains Fell the probable route of any trans Craven system is less easy to predict but the Skirfare risings in Littondale are likely to be involved.

 

[langcliffe]

You may also be interested to consult an article by the other Dave Brook, written in the early 70s (if I remember rightly) about the possibility of a "Trans Craven System" in an issue of Descent magazine. 

Dave Brook, 1971, "Trans-Craven  - 3rd Generation Cavers Could Complete a 200 Mile Giant", Descent no. 18,  pp. 16-18

It's in one of the early  Descents which were printed on a most peculiar paper size - 205 mm by 165 mm. The article contains some rather wonderful throw-away lines - e.g. "having reached Alum Pot by some means or other...".

 

[Scoff]

Re: The Trans-Craven System

This other Dave Brook is Bradford Pothole Club member (who may also frequent this forum under the soubriquet Brave Duck) and I have a feeling that the idea was first floated in a BPC Bulletin in 1971, and reprinted in the BPC 'Millenium' edition (published June 2001) pages 68 - 70.

Scoff
BPC/ CDG

 

[Pitlamp]

Thanks Langcliffe and Scoff.  I guess there are probably some younger Northern cave explorers who aren't familiar with this trans Craven idea.  Maybe flagging it up a bit will raise enthusiasm!

 

[Hasbeen caver]

Back in the late 70's / early 80's, when I was doing most of my caving, there was a shortlived magazine called Caving International.  I only ever bought one copy - No. 8 - and I still have it!

I bought it for an article by Tony Waltham called Caves of the Three Counties, my favourite topic, on my favourite system in my favourite (and my local) area - the Yorkshire Dales.  But I didn't really buy it for Tony's words (!) but more for the composite survey which ran across two pages in the middle of the magazine.  This was centred on Gragareth and showed all the known passages at the time, from Aygill Caverns in the West, to Vesper Pot and Growling Hole in the East.

I found this survey absolutely fascinating, and still do, because it was the first (and only?) time that someone had plotted all the caves on one drawing, which allowed you to really see how they all inter-related, and most tantalisingly, just what discoveries were needed to make the postulated super-system a reality.

The most interesting thing when looking back at that survey is to realise just how many of these missing links have been discovered since it was published.  The King Pot / Keld Head link isn't shown; neither is Large Pot / Rift Pot, the Notts Pot master cave and many more.

Although I have long-since hung up my wetsuit (when climbing proved a stronger lure!), I have always remained fascinated by new discoveries, particularly in the Dales, and I have often wished that someone would take on the task of updating this amazing survey.  I know that Chris Howes of Descent would publish it, because I've suggested it to him!  But to date, he hasn't managed to find anyone willing to have a go.

If you've never seen the original drawing, or don't share my interest in this particular system, then you are probably wondering what I am on about!  But I bet some of you have a long enough memory....

Anyone up for it?

Cheers

Neil

 

[graham]

Excellent idea, Hasbeen; though it would be even better done online in the same manner as Bill Chadwick's mendip caves map.

 

[dunc]

An old look at the potential of the system before some of the major discoveries had been made..

http://cucc.survex.com/archive/jnl/1971/3c.htm

 

[andymorgan]

Thanks for the posting the article Dunc. I didn't really think of looking on line for information, as it is quite rare to find such articles about caving online.

I will have to try and obtain the older written articles. I have been reading the book 'Potholing beneath the Northern Pennines', but that is a bit outdated: there is a gap in the market if someone writes book about caving in the Dales now!

 

[Pitlamp]

I think the Red Rose is well on with a modern survey of the 3 counties system; Last time I looked at Mr.Duffy's computer screen it was most impressive.

Dave Heap's book is far from outdated.  The gear has changed and some more caves have been discovered - but the sense of actually being in the caves which he portrayed so well is as fresh as ever.

 

[andymorgan]

I have found a good line survey of the three counties system on the Red Rose site. I wouldn't say Potholing Beneath the Northern Pennines is the best caving book I have read; the author seems almost bored writing at some points. But still there are some good bits.

 

[damian]

I wouldn't say Potholing Beneath the Northern Pennines is the best caving book I have read; the author seems almost bored writing at some points. But still there are some good bits.

Shock, horror! IMHO it's a piece of brilliance ... from cover to cover.

:chair: :chair:

 

[Pitlamp]

I read Dave Heap's Potholing Beneath The Northern Pennines as a child and it was one of the most important stimuli which made me be a caver.  (The other great work which had a similar effect on me as a child was Gemmell & Myers' Underground Adventure.)  Dave Heap was educated at Cambridge and had an excellent command of English.  I never owned my own copy and by the time I decided to buy one it was long out of print.  Then, out of the blue, Iain Barker presented me with a copy he'd bought for me in a second hand bookshop, as he knew I really wanted one.  It was a very much appreciated gesture.

I've lost count of how many times I've read the book - but if I was ever washed away on a desert island and could wish for just half a dozen books - that would be one of them.

 

[andymorgan]

Its not a bad book by any means, it is just a bit too clinical for my liking. The author doesn't really convey the full range of emotions that caving brings, that other publications such as 'Beneath the Mountains' and 'The Adventures of Another Pooh' do.