Things coming to a head at BCA?

[Cavematt]

To clarify a few facts in the above discussion (Badlad is correct in his statements):

At the AGM a clear written mandate was produced as part of my proposal to accompany the standing of Gary as the new BCA Webmaster (Note; this is a different position to Web Services). This mandate was intended to allow overhaul of some of the outdated back-end BCA systems including the way the BCA interacts with its members and the way members interact with the BCA (e.g. membership database functions and BCA online).

Quoted from my proposal:

"This is more than just a cosmetic refurbishment of the public facing pages. The BCA should take advantage of Gary?s offer; to redevelop the BCA website, including internal and external communications systems, the public website, the behind-the-scenes systems, and BCA online."

The proposal also specifically detailed the exact accesses Gary would need.

The AGM provided instruction to BCA Council to appoint Gary on this basis, which they did. I can confirm that at the meeting at Hidden Earth, the Web Services Officer clarified that he is refusing to provide Gary the necessary accesses to fulfil my proposal. Gary?s level of access at the moment is limited to the public facing website only (something he has nonetheless done a lot of work on, and a beta-version of a redesigned website will hopefully be available in the coming months).

I need to be absolutely clear; if BCA wish to email our members about anything, or wish to implement any changes relating to any back-end systems (e.g. relating to membership or how any of our databases work), the current Web Services Officer is, I believe, the only person elected by BCA Council or members who has the access and knowledge to do this. He has shown willing to disregard the wishes of BCA members if he doesn?t personally agree. He therefore has the BCA held by the b*llocks in that respect.

Clearly this is a terrible situation for any organisation to find itself in, but one which we have no choice but to live with as the situation is a stalemate and nobody can agree who is right.

I do not wish to disrespect the amount of work the current Web Services Officer does for BCA (much of it is good). However I cannot help but be disappointed by what has happened over these last few months as it represents a barrier to the extent of modernisation I wished to see initiated this year. I hope this can be resolved before the Vision Group report in 2020, because their recommendations are likely to be much further reaching than anything I have come up with and will require absolute cooperation from the entire BCA team to implement.

On a separate note, a request has now been submitted to BCA Council to try to stop BCA Officers using UK Caving to make cavers aware of such goings-on in the BCA. I can assure everyone that I have no intention of being silenced and I expect BCA Council will dismiss this request. Nonetheless I am posting this as myself personally and not in my capacity (or using my login) as BCA Secretary to avoid any confusion and to clarify that the above is not an official BCA statement; simply my personal narrative and interpretation of the current situation.

On a separate lighter note, let's celebrate some excellent work that has happened in the BCA over the past few months. Hellie has visited Westminster to push the CRoW matter with MPs and the Glover report has specifically acknowledged caving in its recommendations regarding countryside access, all thanks to the work BCA volunteers have put in to raise the profile of this issue. The BCA now have loads of 'New to Caving' leaflets to see our sport promoted nationally, and Jane Allen organised an excellent stall at Hidden Earth (if you haven't read the Publication and Information Officer's report yet then you should... it is great). There's been some excellent work done looking at Radon, something which I'm sure we can all agree that a better understanding of is in all cavers interests. The Youth and Development team have been making real benefits for younger cavers and identifying more ways the BCA can support them; just see the last BCA newsletter for examples. Other work has continued in all of the BCA's key facets including conservation, access, training and equipment and techniques, and the BCA has continued to fund our Regional Councils in their work.

Therefore, all issues aside, the BCA is a valuable organisation, so let's stay positive and hope the above difficult situations can work themselves out.

Matt Ewles

 

[Pitlamp]

Matt makes a good point immediately above; we should all remember the many excellent ways in which BCA serves its members, rather than becoming overly preoccupied with individual issues which may, or may not be, to everyone's satisfaction.

I've always been grateful for all that BCA does for me as a regular caver, none of which would happen without collective volunteer effort, from all camps.

I think British cavers are very lucky. Count your blessings. 

 

[NewStuff]

On a separate note, a request has now been submitted to BCA Council to try to stop BCA Officers using UK Caving to make cavers aware of such goings-on in the BCA.

This kind of bullshit (and it *is* bullshit) is the reason why so many people want nothing to do with the BCA, it's a large part of why the BCA currently has such a bad image. The fact that that a minority are hellbent on dragging everything back to the way it was, no matter what dirty little tricks are needed, speaks volumes. I sincerely hope they get told to go forth and fornicate by the BCA.

 

[BradW]

Of course BCA Officers should use caver forums and the like to communicate factual BCA matters to cavers.

 

[alastairgott]

Cookie stood up in the meeting and openly said he wanted either the individual tep or the club rep. His reasoning for this is because he wanted to make decisions on what he would be doing within the BCA.

At the time the meeting did not see this as tallying with the role of an individual rep or that of a club rep. Both of which should be championing the ideas of individual cavers or that of the club cavers.

I would hasten to say that in my mind the following are things that the individual or club cavers should be fighting for:
1) emails to be sent out to individual members
2) communication methods to be used to ensure the members know what?s going on
3) a revamp of the website to fully allow members to update details.

There is nothing in cookies actions so far which show that he would have been a good candidate for those roles which he was put forward for. Ergo the dissidence which has come as a result of the BCA Agm is uncalled for.

 

[andrewmcleod]

If anyone went to Rob Middleton's (excellent) Hidden Earth talk, they would know that while he had various preconceptions about talking to individuals from certain caving organizations what he found was that everyone he talked to was passionate about caving and doing the best they could to help. It is also, of course, very true that different people have very different views about what the 'best for caving' is, and some people hold very unpopular views. But then, the majority view isn't always right, either...

Now of course in politics more generally it isn't always the case that everyone is in it for 'good' reasons.. There are always those with no principles, or freely abandon them, to sail on a wave of popularity (see the British Government for example). But if you have people taking unpopular positions and receiving nothing but flak for it, then chances are they _do_ believe what they are saying.

If you don't understand at all how someone could come to a conclusion they reached, then you haven't learnt enough about the issue to properly debate it.

As an individual member representative, I will be attending the council meeting and I intend to represent what I believe individual members want (and if you have opinions, feel free to message me and I will attempt to convey at least the spirit of these to Council). I will be waiting to hear exactly what access the webmaster wants and with what justification, and what access the IT Services officer is denying and with what justification.

 

[GarDouth]

For those who don?t know, I am the current webmaster. I just wanted to clarify a few facts as mentioned above, just so people know my side of things.

Firstly, I am not all that interested in caving politics, bitching and personal attacks. I just want to do the thing I know I?m good at and to help improve and modernise the BCA and caving for everyone.

When I was elected at the AGM I was very excited about cracking on and bringing something new for people to be proud of and on the whole, I?ve had a lot of support so thanks for that. However, recently I have found this whole situation very stressful and it has been on my mind a lot to the point where I keep asking myself ?what?s the point in trying??.  I do want to continue, and I will do the job to the best of my ability, but I cannot face a constant up-hill battle at every turn. If things don?t change, I will have to consider ceasing involvement in BCA for my own sanity.

Here are a few facts?

• The new website is almost finished. I was hoping to have a beta version available before the meeting this weekend however all work has now stopped pending the outcome of that meeting.
  
• I have been given access to the public facing website which I have tried to make a bit better in the interim and updated various sections etc.
  
• I have not been given any access to the members database or back-end systems. This is required to achieve the mandated online voting (into the future) and an improved ?BCA online? section and was specifically part of the proposal at the AGM including technical details (you can read it on the website).
  
• I have developed a separate, simple site to allow online voting for the pending ballot. This is not the permanent future solution but a simply to get over this particular ballot as easily as possible. This was ready to go in August (and approved by the current Web Services Officer) but needs to be populated with real member data. This as been promised by the current Web Services Officer but not yet provided despite asking several times, including at a meeting during Hidden Earth.
  
• I have struggled to work with the current Web Services Officer. I have been told in no uncertain terms that it?s his way or no way and access to member data has been categorically refused when asked directly at a meeting at Hidden Earth. This meeting was also attended by the Secretary.
  
• I have been accused by the current Web Services Officer of changing passwords for access to the public site once I received them and not letting him have the new ones. Changing passwords that have been handed around is quite normal practice ? so I did, as soon as they were received. At no point have I been asked for these passwords or been given any reason or explanation as to why the Web Services Officer needs access.
  
• I have been accused of only wanting to work alone. This is unhelpful and un-true.

If you would like to know my credentials?
I am a professional web developer and IT engineer with 20 years? experience. I have done quite a lot of caving related sites (all un-paid) including CNCC and the CNCC Cave Booking System, Hidden Earth, Northern Pennine Club, York Caving Club, Northern Caves and EuroSpeleo as well as various back-end system such as the Northern Caves Monitoring system.

Gary

 

[Pegasus]

Firstly, I am not all that interested in caving politics, bitching and personal attacks. I just want to do the thing I know I?m good at and to help improve and modernise the BCA and caving for everyone.

When I was elected at the AGM I was very excited about cracking on and bringing something new for people to be proud of and on the whole, I?ve had a lot of support so thanks for that. However, recently I have found this whole situation very stressful and it has been on my mind a lot to the point where I keep asking myself ?what?s the point in trying??.  I do want to continue, and I will do the job to the best of my ability, but I cannot face a constant up-hill battle at every turn. If things don?t change, I will have to consider ceasing involvement in BCA for my own sanity.

For goodness sake, what image does all this give of BCA??  I see my role, amongst other things, as to promote BCA in a positive manner to cavers.  Without Gary's help I would really struggle to do this - who do you think designed and arranged for printing of the excellent BCA banners etc for the Hidden Earth stand?  Who do you think finished off designing and again helped with printing of the New to Caving leaflets?  Who helped finalise the new BCA logo?  I could go on and on and on listing the things Gary helps me to do - notwithstanding the new BCA website he is designing and which is sorely needed!

So please would certain cavers please stop finding ways of halting the modernisation and progress at the BCA.  If we lost Gary's help it would be a flippin disaster.  I don't want to go back to the old website, the old logo, no stand, poor Descent adverts, no leaflets to encourage new people to our sport etc etc etc - do you??

 

[NewStuff]

I'm a bit more blunt - Cookie needs to grow up and stop trying to take his ball away because he doesn't like the way things are going. It's pathetic, not just for the act itself, but for the image it projects. Children act like that, not grown men with responsibilities and skills.

 

[Jopo]

Is it his ball? What would be the situation if Cookie was voted out or stood down. How could the BCA enforce the return of data?
What it does mean is that it should be put in place that no one officer should have sole access to ANYTHING the BCA and it's members own.

Jopo

 

[Roger W]

Is it his ball? What would be the situation if Cookie was voted out or stood down. How could the BCA enforce the return of data?
What it does mean is that it should be put in place that no one officer should have sole access to ANYTHING the BCA and it's members own.

Jopo

Always a good idea, never mind the politics.  If one person has sole access to anything, and something happens to them (caving accident, motorway crash, sudden illness, whatever...), then you have problems.

 

[David Rose]

Gary, your post only underlines what I already knew.

We need you.

Whatever you do, however unpleasant this current spat gets, PLEASE do not resign. It will, eventually, pass.

 

[Mike Hopley]

I have done quite a lot of caving related sites (all un-paid) including CNCC and the CNCC Cave Booking System, Hidden Earth, Northern Pennine Club, York Caving Club, Northern Caves and EuroSpeleo as well as various back-end system such as the Northern Caves Monitoring system.

I'll stay well clear of talking politics, as I feel too ignorant to comment. But I can talk about the websites.

I've heard nothing but praise for the EuroSpeleo and CNCC websites, and it's well-deserved. Everyone found them helpful, informative, well-designed, and easy to use.

The new CNCC booking system is a fantastic development. It's a great example of using the web to make ordinary caving better. It could have been quite complicated, but again Gary made it clean and simple.

Based on the universal praise for his work so far, I feel Gary is clearly the right person for this role. I hope the current personal/political issues can be resolved so that he can get on with more excellent work.

 

[Ed]

Any way as a BCA member I can expressly request my data to be handed over?

 

[Benfool]

https://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=about:documentsrivacy_notice#access_to_personal_information

 

[cavemanmike]

The "ball" is the bca's and no-one elses