This looks like a nice abseil

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
Fulk said:
I've known two of our ropes get badly glazed; one was 10/10.5 mm Marlow, which suffered on the big pitch in Bar Pot (~30 m) from, I think, only one descent, the other was 9 mm Edelrid, which got glazed by a single descent of Alum Pot Main Shaft (SE end ? so 50 m?

Both dry pitches, usually.
I always used to keep ropes dry if possible, having heard that they were stronger like that.
Since that incident I make sure they are wet.
I think even when wet 9mm caving rope is plenty strong enough!
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
I had a 10.5mm rope glazed on the Lancaster Hole entrance pitch by a student club. I suspect that they abseiled too fast, and then braked and hung about on the same bit of rope. In general, I wet my (I now use 9mm) ropes the day before. This allows them to drain, but also retain enough dampness to keep any heat down.
 

Ian

Member
I would suggest that it is our design of rack that does it? Having a solid bar means that on a short pitch it doesn't get as hot (which is good) but on a longer pitch the bar will retain a lot more heat resulting in the potential for glazing of the rope. Having a bar which is thinner (or hollow) allows the heat to dissipate quicker (more surface area) and also limits the amount of heat energy stored in the bar.

As a result the hollow / curved section bars might get hot quicker but will not retain the heat / will dissipate the heat quicker resulting in less chance of glazing the rope.

I like the solidity of our rack and would not want to switch to bars shown in the video but there are significant downsides to the Petzl type rack. And as for Stops etc ..........
 

mikem

Well-known member
Following Kenilworth's suggestion, this paper states that water causes a decrease in the glass transition temperature of nylon, so my assumption is that a wet rope will dissipate the heat throughout the whole structure, whilst a damp patch on the sheath is more likely to glaze (as the heat is kept within that part of the rope, as well as reducing its ability to cope):
http://personal.strath.ac.uk/andrew.mclaren/Journal%2520of%2520Materials%2520Design%2520and%2520Applications/AJ%2520McLaren.pdf

Elsewhere I found that nylon 6 has a glass transition temperature of only 48'c, compared to melting at 214'c.

I like the sound of Langcliffe's soaking the previous night & then draining somewhere cool enough that it won't dry out. (The only rope I've heard of totally failing a drop test, that wasn't damaged or affected by chemicals, was one that was left hanging on a heater, so the temperature built up within).

Mike
 

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
mikem said:
Following Kenilworth's suggestion, this paper states that water causes a decrease in the glass transition temperature of nylon, so my assumption is that a wet rope will dissipate the heat throughout the whole structure, whilst a damp patch on the sheath is more likely to glaze (as the heat is kept within that part of the rope, as well as reducing its ability to cope):
http://personal.strath.ac.uk/andrew.mclaren/Journal%2520of%2520Materials%2520Design%2520and%2520Applications/AJ%2520McLaren.pdf

Elsewhere I found that nylon 6 has a glass transition temperature of only 48'c, compared to melting at 214'c.

I like the sound of Langcliffe's soaking the previous night & then draining somewhere cool enough that it won't dry out. (The only rope I've heard of totally failing a drop test, that wasn't damaged or affected by chemicals, was one that was left hanging on a heater, so the temperature built up within).

Mike
I'm afraid the link wouldn't work for me.

That's an interesting idea (about a damp patch on an otherwise dry rope being more likely to cause glazing).

If so it would follow that a completely dry rope (presumably like the el capitan one) may not suffer damage below (say) 100C, whereas one that had been kept for a long time in dry conditions but had then picked up some surface moisture in the cave could glaze completely at lower temperatures.

I have requested a recent publication on the subject of glass transition temperature.
I suspect, from what little I have just read on the (entirely new to me) subject, that I shall struggle to understand much of it.

 

mikem

Well-known member
If you Google, glass transition of rope, it came up top for me.

It would explain why the rope at Lancaster Hole glazed, where drips would fall onto & run down the sheath, if they took a long time before they all abseiled - quite likely with a student group. (Putting the rope down momentarily in puddles, or a shower of rain, could have the same effect).
 

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
mikem said:
If you Google, glass transition of rope, it came up top for me.

It would explain why Langcliffe didn't glaze his rope at Lancaster Hole, where drips would fall onto & run down the sheath before the next group arrived & used his rope... (putting the rope down momentarily in puddles or a shower of rain could have the same effect).

OK, I shall have a look.

But I have just realised that it wouldn't fully explain what happened to us in Nettle - those descenders got REALLY hot.
 

ALEXW

Member
Would the loose mantle on a new dry rope not act as an insulator and prevent the heat from being transferred into the more dense core of the rope.  This may only be an issue the first time the rope is used as the mantle very quickly tightens. I always wash new ropes and repeatedly pull them through a descender, it is surprising how quickly the mantle tightens and the rope shrinks.
 

mikem

Well-known member
The overheating in Nettle is likely to be a combination of factors, but ALEXW has a good point... (a hot day / low humidity would exacerbate the effect).

Nylon 66 has a melting point of 268'c, but dry glass transition of 60'c can reduce to 10'c when wet!

Climbing rope is normally made of 66:
http://www.chemistryislife.com/the-chemistry-of-2
 

Kenilworth

New member
Ian said:
I like the solidity of our rack and would not want to switch to bars shown in the video but there are significant downsides to the Petzl type rack. And as for Stops etc ..........

Having used racks with solid, tubular, and u-shaped bars, I prefer the stainless u. They wear well, ride well, and I've never experienced any heat problems. My SS rack was stolen from my car, so now I stick to a micro with stainless tubular bars. Little people like me often struggle to move with sticky  Al rack bars, and I think that is the only significant downside.

I once made a set of oak bars, with the intention of trying to scorch them (to be honest I wanted the rack to burst into flames). The bars glazed/polished after a few fast rappels but never became dangerously fast or scorched or damaged the rope.
 

mikem

Well-known member
Apparently the autoignition temperature of wood is over 180'c, so I'm not surprised you couldn't make it light up....

Would be interesting to know if fulk & langcliffe ropes were also new, or likely to have damp patches!
 

langcliffe

Well-known member
mikem said:
Would be interesting to know if fulk & langcliffe ropes were also new, or likely to have damp patches!

Sorry - it was a long time ago, and I find it difficult to remember what I had for breakfast these days.
 

Fulk

Well-known member
I can't remember really, but I suspect that the thinner rope was relatively new ? and I guess it could have got a little bit wet in Alum Pot.
 

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
In an earlier post I referred to some work I did measuring temperature rise in a STOP.
I just dug out the results, from January 2013.

I glued 2 thermocouples to the inside of the hollow bottom bobbin of an old STOP, drilling a hole in the back for the wires.
One was on the lower curve, close to the hole that can be used for a krab to remove the autolock function, the other was directly opposite that, inside the pointy bit that nips the rope on autolock.
The temperatures were read off on a 2-input digital thermometer.
I have a photo, but no clue about how to post it here.

I was given an old, stiff, retired 50m length of 10.5mm Mammut and used it on the 45m surface pitch of Titan.
The pitch was dry (as it almost always is) and the rope had been kept knitted up in our living room for days so it was also dry. I had considered using the TSG drying room, which has a dehumidifier, but decided against it.

The rope went through a braking krab, which was never used.
I think each drop took less than a minute, but I didn't time them.
I could read one channel of the thermometer on the way down.

On the first drop I pressed the handle fully in the prescribed manner and easily controlled the descent by hand.
At the start both temperatures were 4C and at the end the lower thermocouple read 110C, the upper one 65C.
Half a minute later both read 65C.

On the second drop I controlled the descent using the handle, as this seemed likely to generate most heat at the site of the upper thermocouple.
At the start both read 16C, and at the end they read 82C (lower) and 86C (upper).
Half a minute later both were down to 55 - 60C.

Neither the body of the STOP nor the handle were anything like too hot to touch at the end of either drop.
The rope was not glazed at all.

The mass of the bottom bobbin plus backplate and handle is 110 grams, so the bobbin itself (steel) would make up most of that. The rest is aluminium alloy.

My mass of about 70kg means that about 30,000J of heat would be produced on each drop.

A very simple and simplistic calculation, using 100g as the mass of the bobbin, says the temperature rise that would produce in the bobbin is 600C.

That's daft because some will be taken by the top bobbin and some will escape via convection, forced or otherwise, but to my mind it would take some extreme assumptions to believe that all (or even most) of the heat goes into the descender.

Apart from the odd occasion,  of course.

 

mikem

Well-known member
Some heat will have been taken up by the stretch in the rope, as well as by friction into the sheath (although it is an inefficient transfer there is a lot of material - c. 3kg of rope, compared with 0.1kg of descender) & some by the humidity in the cave.

Another discussion that may be of interest:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/heat_generated_during_long_abseils-455860
 

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
mikem said:
Some heat will have been taken up by the stretch in the rope, as well as by friction into the sheath (although it is an inefficient transfer there is a lot of material - c. 3kg of rope, compared with 0.1kg of descender) & some by the humidity in the cave.

Another discussion that may be of interest:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/gear/heat_generated_during_long_abseils-455860

Yes, there are quite a few places the heat can go apart from into the descender.

Re rope stretch, only about 2% can go there (the maximum energy available for that is mg*rope stretch, and the static stretch of the rope with 70kg on the end is about 2%).

The rope itself is a much better candidate: the SHC of nylon is about 1600J/kgK, so with 3kg of rope half of the total energy would give a temperature rise of about 3C - not something anybody would notice, and difficult to find anyway, even if you are looking for it. But rope is a poor conductor of heat and the sheath would stay warmer than that for a while.
A fairly short pitch would do for a trial.

That reference is interesting. There's nothing in most of it that hasn't appeared here at various times, apart from a mention in the last-but-one post of glass transition temperature by a chap who has made other sensible contributions on ukclimbing.
Perhaps that's where Kenilworth got it from.
Doesn't mean it's wrong of course - I still want to know why our descenders in Nettle got too hot to touch under normal use and wrecked a rope, whereas my attempt (second drop) on a similar length pitch to provoke a similar outcome failed dismally.
 
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