Titan info and advice wanted!

[mikem]

However, on a big pitch what may seem like a decent sized loop of rope before the rebelay (when you are abseiling down & thus stretching the rope) may disappear as you transfer your weight on to the rebelay, so you can't transfer your chest jammer back on to the top rope without restretching it first with the hand jammer. (Or you may find the recommended rope length on the topo isn't quite long enough!)

Of course your leash should be short enough to be able to still reach the hand jammer, but many people's aren't.

Mike

 

[seddon]

Safety cord too long?

Yeah, knew at least one person who had that problem. Personally never been a fan of Darwinian selection amongst friends, so these days I'm quite emphatic on this point.

An SRT kit is just a *very* simple set of components which can be set to some quite varied and complex tasks. All that's required is the open outlook to make each item function best in a given situation; coupled with observence of a few central tenets, that's all that's needed.

(rant over)

 

[cavermark]

...loop of rope before the rebelay (when you are abseiling down & thus stretching the rope) may disappear as you transfer your weight on to the rebelay, so you can't transfer your chest jammer back on to the top rope without restretching it first with the hand jammer.
Mike

If you are abseiling down why do you need to get your croll back onto the rope you've just come down?

 

[Brains]

Took it to mean for later when you are returning back up the rope.
This rebelay in Titan is quite close to the one above so the scenario of a disapearing loop doesnt come into play.
If it is an issue, hang from your cow tail (croll detached), then pull down some slack with the hand jammer and attach the croll at that stage...

 

[paul]

Even better: practice on the surface for "when things go wrong", don't wait until you're having the problem for the first time while underground...

 

[cavermark]

Avoid your rebelay loops disappearing by rigging this way:

1. abseil level with the bolts and clip short cowstail in (Titan bolts insitu).
2. let rope go through descender until its completely slack.
3. Now make your loop (make it on the large side - well below your feet level as the Titan bolts are sound).
then move descender onto lower rope, test and continue....

 

[Les W]

Even better: practice on the surface for "when things go wrong", don't wait until you're having the problem for the first time while underground...

Good advice. 
Titan isn't the place to learn these techniques.  :thumbsdown:

 

[doughobbs]

Iv'e been caving for many many years and started off on SRT from day one near enough and have done a LOT of SRT over the years and that is the only time I've ever had an issue..... of any kind 


The Titan episode occurred because when transferring over a belay you gotta stand up in your foot loop/hand jammer at some point to allow you to release your chest jammer. 




With a tight y-hang , short cross over loop and stack of rope above me which had a fair amount of stretch in it to take out - when I stood up to switch over I couldn't swing out slightly (as you need to on that pitch to as you are changing over under an overhang) and unhook my chest jammer due to the tension in the lower rope.  So sitting back down left me with a tight rope above now pulling on my hand jammer-harness link and a rope with no yield below trying to yank me downwards. My cows tails were in already as a matter of course before any de-coupling at this point but as you can see were already no use for hanging on and I can't stand hanging on cows tails  - they are a life backup and you only have one point of connection and are using quick clip krabs!




On the second attempt standing up back on my hand jammer caused my chest jammer to now be pulled through leaving me wedged unable to reverse prussic either hand or chest jammers! Hanging on cows tails at this point would achieve nothing as unless I could get my hand jammer un-clipped and the pull of the rope above out of the way I couldn't focus on my chest jammer/de-rig.  Ab'ing back down the pitch and sorting the rope out on the floor was also out of the question for obvious reasons - I would only have one jammer and the rope was so tight I couldn't' ab down if I wanted too!


I couldn't communicate with the guy above me as he was quite a way up the slope hiding under the bit of cover you have on the Event Horiszon incase of rock falls and I didn't even know if he was even there! He couldn't come down the upper rope as he knew I had weight on it! 


After much yawping we managed to get the state of play over to one another and he told me he could sentd a knife down to me - strangely I can't now remember if he reverse prussic'd down at all or if the knife was just sent 'over the edge' on a crab!  I have to say though it makes me giggle everytime I think of it - who caves with a damn6 inch blade!      I'm so glad this guy did!


Being so close upto the y-hang and having my hand jammer above me my cows tails were totally useless either in the y-hang, on the p hangers or in the change over loop that was really twisted up and causing it's own amount of fun for me outside the issue at hand! I was so close to the changeover I couldn't hang on the cows tails to release the jammers and I also couldn't stand up in my hand jammer again as my chest jammer was now at the knot. The only thing left was to chop the rope below to remove the pressure and allow me to finally get my chest jammer off, get fully on the other rope and then de-rig - at that point I was kind of feeling like this ---->   hehehe!!






Hanging on directly cows tails is something I don't and have never done  - they are there as your life backup incase you cock up whilst getting on/off ropes or fail on a change over!  I'm sure everyone has their own view of this which is fine; just I only use mine as mentioned when getting on/off or changeovers


Forgot to mention that there was the remains of another rope in there also so I had not only the 2 ropes of the OCC's there were 2 other bits of tat there too!  

 

[doughobbs]

Even better: practice on the surface for "when things go wrong", don't wait until you're having the problem for the first time while underground...

Good advice. 
Titan isn't the place to learn these techniques.  :thumbsdown:

Agreed! however Paul you know my capabilities, how long I've been caving for and also I had done Titan more than once at that point - lets not make me out to be a noob hey

 

[mikem]

Whenever you're "messing around" with ropes I'd recommend carrying a knife - although the cord on your deviation clips (or prussik) will cut through a taut rope pretty quick too.

So do you not hang on your cows tails when changing over your descender?

Mike

 

[doughobbs]

never - to me cows tails are there incase something goes wrong,  not for hanging around on whilst you play with equipment.


As said this is just my own way of using them; others will have different views




Anyhoo back to Titan!.......

 

[Rob]

...I was so close to the changeover I couldn't hang on the cows tails to release the jammers and I also couldn't stand up in my hand jammer again as my chest jammer was now at the knot.

But why couldn't you get your hand jammer back? If you got it on from that position it shouldn't have been too hard to get back. You would then be able to clip your foot loop into the bolts, stand up to take your weight, and then down prussik your chest jammer away from the knot.

...Hanging on directly cows tails is something I don't and have never done...

...and that's what caused your problems. Unless you can do a one arm pull up, there's no other way to easily pass the Titan rebelay.

 

[khakipuce]

I know this is rapidly getting way off topic and I know length of cows tails has been done before, but I have to ask - how long is your short cows tail?

If I understand this correctly people seem to be suggesting that it is possible to prussik up and clip the short cow's tail into the rebelay bolt. I'm pretty sure that with a maillon, knot, hand jammer and croll between harness and bolt my short tail wouldn't reach.

 

[paul]

Even better: practice on the surface for "when things go wrong", don't wait until you're having the problem for the first time while underground...

Good advice. 
Titan isn't the place to learn these techniques.  :thumbsdown:

Agreed! however Paul you know my capabilities, how long I've been caving for and also I had done Titan more than once at that point - lets not make me out to be a noob hey

The "you" in my comments was general and not meant to be any one in particular. We've all had screw-ups and epics over the years, so it's just as well to get some pactice on problem solving first on the surface.

So do you not hang on your cows tails when changing over your descender?

Mike

never - to me cows tails are there incase something goes wrong,  not for hanging around on whilst you play with equipment.

I cannot agree with you there however.  It is standard procedure to hang from your short cowstail while passing a rebelay during descent.  It is also standard procedure to hang from both cowstails while on an "aid" traverse (i.e. a traverse where the rope isn't just in case of a fall but used to hang from while progressing).

I also agree with the other point above. If you are on a rope, you should also have a knife.

 

[Rob]

I know this is rapidly getting way off topic and I know length of cows tails has been done before, but I have to ask - how long is your short cows tail?

I don't think this off topic at all. It is info and advice on Titan...

If I understand this correctly people seem to be suggesting that it is possible to prussik up and clip the short cow's tail into the rebelay bolt. I'm pretty sure that with a maillon, knot, hand jammer and croll between harness and bolt my short tail wouldn't reach.

If you're wanting to sit on your short you've got to do it all in one action:

• First attach long cows tail to Y-hang knot
• Then stand up in foot loop, take off croll, stand up a bit more, clip in short, sit down.

This can be quite difficult. It's easier to instead sit on your long:

• First attach long cows tail to Y-hang bolt
• Clip short into loop of next rope
• Then stand up in foot loop, take off croll, put croll on next pitch rope, sit down.

This relies on your long cowstail being shorter than your safety cord.

 

[khakipuce]

Rob, using the long cows tail like that is pretty much what I do if there is a lot of stretch.

Generally I just clip into the rebelay loop, swap my croll across, have a good old tug whilst stood in the foot loop to get the stretch out, then sit down. If there is still too much stretch I stand up again and clip the long cows tail into the knot to get the hand jammer off.

 

[Rob]

The only problem with the long cowstail method in Titan is that the rope above you rubs over the lip as you transfer your weight onto it. If you're sat on your short cowstail instead it is possible to push off the lip slightly, clearing the rope from the overhang above. Not a huge issue as it spreads the wear on the rope over a good few meters, but still...

 

[Stu]

never - to me cows tails are there incase something goes wrong,  not for hanging around on whilst you play with equipment.


As said this is just my own way of using them; others will have different views


Anyhoo back to Titan!.......

Sorry this is OT.

How do you get passed a re-belay (hanging) whilst descending if not by hanging on your short cowstail? The only way I can fathom is to get back on your jammers .

Might be worth considering the strength ratings of your kit. The cowstails are some of the strongest components.

 

[seddon]

(Back a few postings)

Clipping a short on the way up *doesn't* work that conveniently if you have a 'not long', short cowstail. Hence the general continental thing of having a relatively 'not short' version of same (see the Petzl Spelegyca for instance)

However, for those who choose not to commit to long dangly cowstails - a small, especially keylock karabiner should reach the maillon, or at a push the loop of the knot (harder to use if it's loaded, keylocks help with this). When going past, unclipping is easy of course, as the rope (normally!) won't be loaded below the rebelay at that point.

Why bother? Well, I'd suggest it's a question of strength. If you can't rest on anything on an upwards rebelay pass, you're committed to getting your weight on the upper rope as soon as possible while standing in your footloop, while your stregth lasts. Hard if it's free hanging, very hard if there's lots of slack to pull through from a long hang on the upper rope. (You can, of course, transfer hand jammer across first while sitting on your croll on the lower rope - but this presents difficulties too on an offset hang, or if under an overhang). Passing a hanging rebelay, carrying a couple of bags on a long trip, while you try to keep balance on your footloop, and try to pull slack through your croll at the same time; not good.

Getting a rest (using short, or indeed long cowstail - if it ain't too long) at this point is pretty useful and frankly efficient - you can get it right first time because you're not in a rush. Clipping into the rebelay loop only, rather than the bolt, connector, or knot, generally won't achieve this.

It's a technique especially valuable for the unfit, those with less upper body strength, and those getting on a bit. That's why I like it.. The young, fit and strong can do without it - for now. 

 

[graham]

It's a technique especially valuable for the unfit, those with less upper body strength, and those getting on a bit. That's why I like it.. The young, fit and strong can do without it - for now. 

Reminds me very much of a conversation a while back in the Hunters with famous, but no longer young, caver muttering that he was too old for this malarky, as he'd just discovered that, indeed, he no longer had the arm strength to just go for it, as he used to.