Trapped Students rescued, Dow Cave

[kay]

If you look back at CRO records you will find the same caves involved in flood rescues on an almost annual basis and the most regular has always been Long Churn.  I don't think the problem is "that people are entering systems in knowlingly Dangerous conditions" but the opposite - that cavers of limited experience don't understand that a usually benign and novice friendly cave like Long Churn can become a potential death trap - and that this is not a rare event but a regular occurrence.

You also have to take into account the amount of use a cave gets. Long Churn is one of the most heavily used caves in the Dales so is more likely than other less used active stream caves to feature in rescues. And not all the rescues have been of cavers of limited experience.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

And not all the rescues have been of cavers of limited experience.

I think going down a floodable cave in the wrong conditions defines and demonstrates a lack of experience. 

 

[LoneRanger]

... it does seem that people are entering systems in knowlingly Dangerous conditions. Nowt we can do about that but cringe. I also totally agree with the comment on needing good local knowledge ...

I'm local, and when I started caving I asked in the local caving shop which caves are safe in any weather, Dow Cave was in the list that I was given. As a result, I've been in there several times in very wet weather and never had any problems. On Friday, my local knowledge was revised.

 

[LoneRanger]

Hands up anyone who can honestly say they have never been in a cave on a wet day, that with hidsight, they probably shouldn't have been in.

What? no one!

 

[MSD]

Does anybody know exactly how bad it was? It doesn't sound like they were in any danger and maybe the leaders just played it safe by going for the rescue. Well, better safe than sorry (especially after recent events) but maybe it wasn't such a sensational happening.

Mark

 

[ian.p]

i would say that if the leaders had to swim out then conditions were certainly not appropriate for a novice group id also say that the leaders had no excuse not to have predicted the conditions to turn as they did the weather over the past few weeks has been so atrocious the ground saturated and rivers in flood. if the water was that deep then they were definitely in danger of hypothermia if nothing else somehow i doubt that an outdoor center will have issued wetsuits and to get a large group such as that (11 people) out in those conditions would have taken quite a long time. probably not sensational but still shockingly bad practice.

 

[cap n chris]

i would say that if the leaders had to swim out then conditions were certainly not appropriate for a novice group id also say that the leaders had no excuse not to have predicted the conditions to turn as they did the weather over the past few weeks has been so atrocious the ground saturated and rivers in flood. if the water was that deep then they were definitely in danger of hypothermia if nothing else somehow i doubt that an outdoor center will have issued wetsuits and to get a large group such as that (11 people) out in those conditions would have taken quite a long time. probably not sensational but still shockingly bad practice.

Does your organisation provide wetsuits for your youth groups when visiting Swildon's Hole? - the centres I work for don't. Is this shockingly bad practice, IanP? - would you care to write to the respective centre managers accordingly?

 

[ian.p]

we dont go caveing in flood my point was that without wetsuits and in water deep enough to require you to swim a fury suit isnt going to cut it. and yes for trips beyond sump one in swildons we have a small stock of wetsuits

 

[cap n chris]

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of the 11 students had to swim anywhere; therefore they clearly didn't require wetsuits. They just had to sit somewhere dry while the group leaders went to seek assistance.

 

[ian.p]

sory i just re read the article i thaught it said the leaders swam out wheras in fact they waded out apologies for that prehaps not so bad but still not a wholey unsurprising result after reccent weather

 

[cap n chris]

:hug:

 

[knuckledragger]

sory i just re read the article i thaught it said the leaders swam out wheras in fact they waded out apologies for that prehaps not so bad but still not a wholey unsurprising result after reccent weather

Just to confirm. The Leader and an assistant had to swim out to raise the alarm. The water was far too deep to wade through (10-20 ft deep in places).
UWFRA member.

 

[Wee Jess]

From somebody who knows,    wet suits are part of caving kit, and are there to be used.    There wasnt really swimming involved just a traverse for two leaders.  Like someone has already mentioned rescue team was called just for that extra support in getting out all cavers safe and well.  All leaders being very knowledgeable.    But yes a lesson can still be learnt from this inccident. 

 

[newcastlecaver]

... it does seem that people are entering systems in knowlingly Dangerous conditions. Nowt we can do about that but cringe. I also totally agree with the comment on needing good local knowledge ...

I'm local, and when I started caving I asked in the local caving shop which caves are safe in any weather, Dow Cave was in the list that I was given. As a result, I've been in there several times in very wet weather and never had any problems. On Friday, my local knowledge was revised.

Can we confirm that the incident was in fact in Dowbergill passage and not Dow Cave 'proper'? If it was in Dow Cave itself then I would be quite surprised- Dowbergill passage on the other hand is a different kettle of fish...

 

[langcliffe]

Can we confirm that the incident was in fact in Dowbergill passage and not Dow Cave 'proper'? If it was in Dow Cave itself then I would be quite surprised- Dowbergill passage on the other hand is a different kettle of fish...

The entrance to Dowbergill would have been well sumped...

 

[Dep]

Coming into this thread a little late, referring to an early conversation about climate change etc etc...
I don't think that this is a valid reason for reassessing risks for various caves...

Surely the behaviour of systems from catchment to resurgence will not alter significantly over time; X amount of water at A should correspond to Y amount of water at B

Climate change can only influence the frequency with which systems become dangerous.
All decisions should be based on local knowledge and experience, the longer that experience the better as more chance that it will include the extremes and freak events as well.

 

[Wee Jess]

On friday 18th Jan, When a caving session was coming to the end, it came apparent that the water coming into the MAIN entrance to Dow cave had risen quite high.  A disscision was made that a little more extra support in getting the group out would be a safe option. 

While Group waited in a safe area, A rope was attached up and 2 leaders travered out off the MAIN Dow entrance (  NOT SWIMMING OR WADING in any water, ) they reached the mini bus and DROVE to the villiage to alert rescue team. 

Using Cows tail system, ( NOT A DINGY) the group were evauated from the cave... 

Everybody getting out safe and well.        PAPERS EHHH...    It's like chinese whispers..   

 

[langcliffe]

it came apparent that the water coming into the MAIN entrance to Dow cave had risen quite high. 

Now I'm really confused. Dow Cave is a resurgence.

 

[climbergirlz]

Ok so dont believe everything you hear in the media.
1. The group of students were with 2 instructors and 2 other adults
2. It was their 2nd time caving
3. They took bouyancy aids as a precaution and left them at the entrance
4. The water level was fine when they went in
5. The water rose by 6ft on the way back out
6. The tutors decided the students might not be able to manage getting out as it was only their 2nd time in a cave
7. Two tutors went for assistance
8. Cave rescue help set up a traverse line to get them out.
Noone was injured, swam or anything!!!

 

[dunc]

3. They took bouyancy aids as a precaution and left them at the entrance

:-\