UKC Conservation Rewards

[Badlad]

Whilst we are on subject of asking about digging gear left in caves.... 

Does anyone know who owns the pile of coiled pipes and tubs stacked up at Mincemeat Aven in Notts 2.  It is on the route which everyone has to pass on a tourist trip and looks like a building site.  It's been there for quite a while but seems to have grown during the last year. I have made a few enquiries with other groups working in the cave to no avail. 

My friends and I have removed quite a lot of digging gear from Notts already this year.  Here is a photo of about a third of it.

 

[Pitlamp]

I agree with Cookie and Bottlebank. If a well meaning caver is contemplating interfering with someone else's digging equipment, then the onus should definitely be on that caver to go to whatever lengths are necessary to contact the owners or satisfy themselves beyond all doubt that the items really are redundant. (In some cases such an effort to make contact might even prompt the owners to do the job themselves, if their items really are finished with.)

So whilst I fully support Badlad's ideas in general I totally disagree with that aspect of his detail.

Digging equipment is so obviously a different situation from genuine litter. So are ropes - in fact, didn't we have a conversation about that as well a while ago?

Incidentally I don't think that posting a note on here is good enough on its own. This excellent forum isn't universally used by all cavers; you'd need to do far more than just that if a note on here doesn't produce results on its own.

Thinking of Badlad here - I hope he doesn't think my comments above are unnecessarily negative. They're not intended to be - what he's trying to do here is VERY GOOD. It's just that rubbish and cavers' personal property are very different things.

 

[Inferus]

I agree with Cookie and Bottlebank. If a well meaning caver is contemplating interfering with someone else's digging equipment, then the onus should definitely be on that caver to go to whatever lengths are necessary to contact the owners or satisfy themselves beyond all doubt that the items really are redundant. (In some cases such an effort to make contact might even prompt the owners to do the job themselves, if their items really are finished with.)

So whilst I fully support Badlad's ideas in general I totally disagree with that aspect of his detail.

Digging equipment is so obviously a different situation from genuine litter. So are ropes - in fact, didn't we have a conversation about that as well a while ago?

Incidentally I don't think that posting a note on here is good enough on its own. This excellent forum isn't universally used by all cavers; you'd need to do far more than just that if a note on here doesn't produce results on its own.

Thinking of Badlad here - I hope he doesn't think my comments above are unnecessarily negative. They're not intended to be - what he's trying to do here is VERY GOOD. It's just that rubbish and cavers' personal property are very different things.

Thoroughly agree. One point - posting a note on here (about anything) usually works, even if by a circuitous route. A lot of cavers don't use this forum but quite often you find someone that knows someone that knows someone etc.

Over the years I've stumbled across ropes in very poor condition (sheath gone), ladders rusted and/or broken. Years ago I never thought about removing any of it, not my problem and it's somebody else's gear that they should remove! As I age I find myself looking back and thinking, maybe I should have removed it, because it's probably still there. As I said somewhere - obvious rubbish (including useless gear/tackle) is fair game for being removed in my opinion.

 

[RUSS B]

Badlad, I think the stuff at Mincemeat Aven could belong to some of the bogarts.

Will confirm tomorrow

Russ

 

[Badlad]

Badlad, I think the stuff at Mincemeat Aven could belong to some of the bogarts.

Will confirm tomorrow

Russ

Thanks for the note.  I have already asked them (and others), but perhaps they have misunderstood.  Who ever it belongs to, it is an eyesore and has been there for a long time now. 

 

[Badlad]

Thinking of Badlad here - I hope he doesn't think my comments above are unnecessarily negative. They're not intended to be - what he's trying to do here is VERY GOOD. It's just that rubbish and cavers' personal property are very different things.

Cavers property does become rubbish.  Time and time again.  What do we do about that?

 

[graham]

Cavers property does become rubbish.

Mine doesn't, it becomes important items of cultural history which all decent museums are grateful to receive and display for the edification of the young and untutored.  8)

 

[cap n chris]

The significant quantity of digging material at the bottom of Pewter Pot in Hunters Lodge Inn Sink is, presumably, defunct and there is no active digging going on there. If this is the case, does the original club involved in digging there want to remove it before someone else does?

 

[Pitlamp]

The significant quantity of digging material at the bottom of Pewter Pot in Hunters Lodge Inn Sink is, presumably, defunct and there is no active digging going on there. If this is the case, does the original club involved in digging there want to remove it before someone else does?

Chris, your above post uses the word "presumably".

Elsewhere you've used words such as: "obviously it is abandoned, this is self evident, I would equate this to knowing".

- and, separately: "It is OBVIOUSLY not actively being used".

How can you possibly be so sure if you don't make strenuous efforts to contact the owners? Can't you see that such a closed end approach can lead to your actually being wrong?

Here's another way of looking at it - what counts as "abandoned"? Are you going to put some arbitrary time limit on this - say - 6 months, for example? What about the case of a project which needs very specific conditions to be able to pursue (very low water or very high water, for example)? You might have to wait 12 months or a couple of years to be able to resume work, if such a project is so weather dependent. Yet the project may be far from abandoned. So if your chosen (arbitrary) time limit is really meaningless, sooner or later someone is going to be mistaken in their well meaning conservation efforts.

Anyone who intends to start messing with other folks' property and projects owes it to them to do their very best to make contact and discuss this first. Equally, anyone who has gear stored in a cave long term owes it to the rest of us to clear up once the project's genuinely finished. As Cookie said, a common sense approach is needed.

Cookie also makes the valid point that a post on this forum may well get to cavers who don't use the forum, indirectly. But there are still other cavers who you won't get to by this means, so you really need to be more thorough. Especially if you have no mandate from the caving world at large to interfere.

This is a great initiative generally - but it needs to be got right to get universal support.

 

[Pitlamp]

Thinking of Badlad here - I hope he doesn't think my comments above are unnecessarily negative. They're not intended to be - what he's trying to do here is VERY GOOD. It's just that rubbish and cavers' personal property are very different things.

Cavers property does become rubbish.  Time and time again.  What do we do about that?

You make every effort to find out the difference before interfering.

I've done this loads of times over the years - just quietly making enquiries and often succeeding in making contact with the owners. Many times I've gone on to remove their debris with their blessing and on some occasions they've been prompted to go and do it themselves as a result of my getting in touch.

Don't get me wrong Badlad - you've highlighted an obvious problem yours is a very good initiative. It just needs to be got right.

 

[Bottlebank]

I completely agree with Pitlamps comments, including the one's praising the initiative.

One suggestion I have in terms of spreading the word, as well as posting a note on here, which I agree is not sufficient, why not maintain a list of club and individuals email addresses so that any clubs who want to be can be notified if someone is thinking of removing digging gear. A quick email would then give them a chance to claim ownership?

 

[droid]

Aren't most digging 'projercts' located in obscure/hard to reach parts of the cave?

So they shouldn't really be a problem for mainstream cavers.

If stuff's rotted beyond recall, fine, take it out. The problem seems to be with stuff that has life left in it. Given that the cave isn't going anywhere, what's the urgency in removing it? Wait a year until it's rotted then remove it.

Seems to me that the need to come up with a catchy meme is overtaking common sense.

 

[cap n chris]

The significant quantity of digging material at the bottom of Pewter Pot in Hunters Lodge Inn Sink is, presumably, defunct and there is no active digging going on there. If this is the case, does the original club involved in digging there want to remove it before someone else does?

Chris, your above post uses the word "presumably".

Elsewhere you've used words such as: "obviously it is abandoned, this is self evident, I would equate this to knowing".

- and, separately: "It is OBVIOUSLY not actively being used".

How can you possibly be so sure if you don't make strenuous efforts to contact the owners? Can't you see that such a closed end approach can lead to your actually being wrong?

:thumbs

Fully agree! - not arguing with any of your valid points.

My suspicion, though, is that the cave has not been actively dug for many moons.

Hopefully posting here is sufficiently akin to checking whether HLIS is an active dig with whichever club(s) have an interest.

 

[Pitlamp]

The significant quantity of digging material at the bottom of Pewter Pot in Hunters Lodge Inn Sink is, presumably, defunct and there is no active digging going on there. If this is the case, does the original club involved in digging there want to remove it before someone else does?

Chris, your above post uses the word "presumably".

Elsewhere you've used words such as: "obviously it is abandoned, this is self evident, I would equate this to knowing".

- and, separately: "It is OBVIOUSLY not actively being used".

How can you possibly be so sure if you don't make strenuous efforts to contact the owners? Can't you see that such a closed end approach can lead to your actually being wrong?

:thumbs

Fully agree! - not arguing with any of your valid points.

My suspicion, though, is that the cave has not been actively dug for many moons.

Hopefully posting here is sufficiently akin to checking whether HLIS is an active dig with whichever club(s) have an interest.

Ah - I think we may be talking at cross purposes here Chris. Your point was about a specific site but I was taking a more general view.

When I posted my contribution I had the late and great Ben Bentham very much in mind (best known as a prolific digger in the Peak District). He often used bizarre looking systems; sometimes these looked like abandoned rubbish. But usually when I would probe him he'd explain his thinking and he was generally right. Most casual observers (like me) would fail to follow his thinking at first. But Ben was nothing short of a genius; many of the Peak District folk on this forum would verify this. It's folk like Ben who might suffer if well meaning cavers started removing items without going to some effort to get to the bottom of the situation.

Anyway, never mind that; I've got a cave conservation plan up my sleeve that will (if it comes off) remove a greater weight in rubbish than any caver on this forum has removed in their entire caving career. I'll not elaborate just yet - but watch this space. 

 

[cap n chris]

Indeed. I was being very very specific about Hunters Lodge Inn Sink in this particular instance; the cave was dug by JRat ("Keep on Diggin'") and if memory serves some continued digging persisted but I've not heard much in recent years about it being active, yet there is a good amount of metalwork and associated gubbins down there festering. If it's not going to be used again in short order it ought to come out and if no-one's botherin' to do the right thing I'm sure a gang could be cajoled into a productive clear-up trip soon enough. Obviously wouldn't want to upset the applecart and turn noses out of place, though. Anyone know what's going on down there?

 

[Badlad]

I think we need to have a little bit more faith in cavers common sense.  Often you'll have seen digging junk on previous trips or it will be rotting or rusting away before you decide to remove it.  I'm not against the notion of trying to find out who might have left it there in the first place either.  The current view that nobody should touch anything if it does not belong to them does not work, and the evidence litters our caves.  The three bang wires in Cascade Inlet KMC, the ice cream tub of 20 year old bang in Tate Galleries, the sack of cement, rotten wood, rusting tools and silted up pipes in Gasfords are just a few examples of gear that has laid in place for 20 years.  At the bottom of the second pitch in Gavel Pot you have to step over a flattened galvanised bucket with no bottom and a broken handle, next to it is a glass bottle.  Both have been there for as long as I can remember yet no one has taken them out.  Hundreds of cavers have obviously left them alone as some would wish, but I say pick them up and take them out.

I very much doubt my slogan or this scheme will result in the removal of diving cylinders from sumps or cement mixers from surface digs.  If a few buckets or tubs get removed from a cave which shouldn't have been that is not the end of the world, is it?  At worst it is one wasted trip and it will encourage diggers to take precautions against it happening.  The positive side of the scheme hopes to change attitudes and remove a large quantity of abandoned gear from our caves (isn't there 100 loads to come out of Darren).  For far too long it has been acceptable to take loads of gear down a cave with no firm plan to bring it back out.  To all extent and purpose it gets abandoned and other cavers don't touch it because it does not belong to them.  Some of this stuff goes on to pollute the cave environment and many of these caves are SSSI's so we do need to do something about it.

I hope this initiative leads to the removal of several hundred tackle bags full of rubbish and abandoned gear from our caves.  If any gear is removed by accident then I apologise in advance but I believe the outcome overall will be worth it.  Pleased the initiative is getting people thinking anyway

Anyway, never mind that; I've got a cave conservation plan up my sleeve that will (if it comes off) remove a greater weight in rubbish than any caver on this forum has removed in their entire caving career. I'll not elaborate just yet - but watch this space. 

Great news Pitlamp - intriguing. 

 

[Pitlamp]

What about those of us who work 7-10 days solid then only get one precious day off to pursue projects before going back to repeat the cycle? If you are relying on a piece of equipment and someone removes it because they can't be bothered to make the effort to find out properly who it belongs to or why it's there, it's hardly fair on the owner is it? What if they've had a long and expensive journey to get to the site, only to find that someone has unnecessarily interfered? The problem with what you're proposing is that the genuine digger is the one inconvenienced, not the lazy person who isn't willing to do the right thing first. It's not especially difficult to track down most cavers these days after all.

So your idea can never be universally acceptable. However, I'm glad you agree that common sense is advisable. And in principle I'll support you. I just think you've got the detail slightly wrong.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Is it beyond the wit of man for those with anything other than a short term dig to stick a discrete sign at the dig with a date, name and contact number on it? 1) it solves the problem of making contact for those intent on treating tools as litter, 2) it might attract more diggers to help, something a good dig is always short of when you most need extra bodies.

 

[alastairgott]

Pre rigged caves for divers tend to be rigged with rope which most consider to be well beyond date, should these have a note on them?

I guess different regions are going to be different though? There's a rope somewhere in the peak speedwell system that has a date on it to remove, it's well beyond date and still there (as it's a handline).

 

[Leclused]

What about those of us who work 7-10 days solid then only get one precious day off to pursue projects before going back to repeat the cycle? If you are relying on a piece of equipment and someone removes it because they can't be bothered to make the effort to find out properly who it belongs to or why it's there, it's hardly fair on the owner is it? What if they've had a long and expensive journey to get to the site, only to find that someone has unnecessarily interfered? The problem with what you're proposing is that the genuine digger is the one inconvenienced, not the lazy person who isn't willing to do the right thing first. It's not especially difficult to track down most cavers these days after all.

So your idea can never be universally acceptable. However, I'm glad you agree that common sense is advisable. And in principle I'll support you. I just think you've got the detail slightly wrong.

Leave a plastified note at your dig site with your contact details see one of my post on page 1 of this thread for an exmple.