Victoria Cave ? Conservation or Desecration?

[oldboy]

On visiting Victoria Cave last weekend I was shocked to see that the Yorkshire Dales National Park in conjunction with several other ?bodies? have installed just inside the  cave three large metal beams each over 3 metres long presumably to keep visitors to a newly created  narrow path, the third beam barring way on into the cave proper.
These look totally appalling, being fixed by 12, 16mm steel studs drilled into the cave wall and nearby large boulders.
This is an archaeologically  important Yorkshire Cave, which has been open to visitors unimpeded for over 100 years - so why?
They do not serve any purpose, they are a diabolical eyesore and visitors to the cave last weekend just climbed over them, or used them as gymnastic apparatus.
What really appalled me was to see from the attached notice on one of the beams that BCRA was one of the supporting agencies for the scheme.

So, who amongst our leaders approved this involvement and why?
(Picture available but can't work out how to attach it)

 

[langcliffe]

On visiting Victoria Cave last weekend I was shocked to see that the Yorkshire Dales National Park in conjunction with several other ?bodies? have installed just inside the  cave three large metal beams each over 3 metres long presumably to keep visitors to a newly created  narrow path, the third beam barring way on into the cave proper.
These look totally appalling, being fixed by 12, 16mm steel studs drilled into the cave wall and nearby large boulders.
This is an archaeologically  important Yorkshire Cave, which has been open to visitors unimpeded for over 100 years - so why?
They do not serve any purpose, they are a diabolical eyesore and visitors to the cave last weekend just climbed over them, or used them as gymnastic apparatus.
What really appalled me was to see from the attached notice on one of the beams that BCRA was one of the supporting agencies for the scheme.

So, who amongst our leaders approved this involvement and why?
(Picture available but can't work out how to attach it)

You may finds this provides an insight into the background of the project:

http://www.yorkshiredales.org.uk/lookingafter/caringfor/managingaccess/ydaf/ydlaf-meetings/ydlaf-archive/ydlaf-feb2011/item_no_9_-_victoria_cave.pdf

 

[Pitlamp]

I had nothing to do with that oldboy but I remember being told that the original plan was to block off the whole cave. I believe that they were persuaded by cavers that it would be possible to achieve their objective (archaeological preservation) and still maintain access for cavers. From our perpective, it might actually have been worse?

(There is an important principle at stake here; protecting the sediment locally - rather than preventing access generally - should be the preferred approach in such circumstances.)

I think there's something about this in the latest issue of Descent, though I can't remember what it says so I don't know if it would help answer your point above.

 

[oldboy]

The way its been installed is having the opposite effect to what's been intended then. Whilst we were there - sheltering from the wind whilst having our lunch, a large group of walkers entered the cave, saw the barriers and then made their way around behind them scrambling all over the sediment area to the left to find somewhere to sit, whilst normally visitors would just have sat down by the old path.

 

[Pitlamp]

Oh dear. Well, at least it's not stopping honest potholers from going into the cave if they want to!

I'll go for a stroll over that way soon and have a look; you've got me curious.

 

[cazza]

The path created in, I think, September last, seems to have the desired effect of encouraging people to use that side of the cave thus offering protection to the other more vulnerable and less accessible areas. That is what I have seen on previous visits.
Is this believed to be so?
The barriers are not helpful and appear to be counter productive.
Please take them away.
I have photos but can't figure out how to attach! 

 

[grahams]

The path created in, I think, September last, seems to have the desired effect of encouraging people to use that side of the cave thus offering protection to the other more vulnerable and less accessible areas. That is what I have seen on previous visits.
Is this believed to be so?
The barriers are not helpful and appear to be counter productive.
Please take them away.
I have photos but can't figure out how to attach!

I would like to see your photos. Here's how to attach:
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=7559.0

 

[cazza]

 

[cazza]

It works!
and another...

 

[grahams]

Thanks for posting the photos cazza. The beams are undoubtedly vandalism and are even worse than the ridiculous and unmaintained information points posted on Ingleborough.

The Management Report states that "Uncontrolled public access however raises two main problems which need to be addressed: erosion of the fragile cave deposits and public safety".

The former 'problem' is pretty odd given that Victoria Cave was largely created by Victorian archeologists who dug up the sediments in their search for artefacts. Most of the sediments are now gone, or at least so disturbed that they are probably of little interest.

But it's the 'public safety' excuse that's particularly galling. Victoria Cave looks like a place where you could have a minor accident if you tried hard enough but has any consideration been given to the historic accident rate? I bet that it is infinitesimally small. Past data is invaluable when performing risk assessments.

Unfortunately, the deadline for responses to this vandalism is long gone but I suggest that we write letters of complaint to the YDNPA.

 

[Alex]

I can't say I have ever been there, is there much cave beyond the tourist part?

 

[braveduck]

Past data is invaluable in understanding Climate Change,there is a lot still left in there.
Hence the barrier.

 

[chrisporcheret]

It does look a tad tatty I must say.....

 

[NigR]

Beams look as though they would make decent shoring - can't someone just recycle them?

(Be grateful for the fact that this is up in Yorkshire - if it was down here in South Wales there would probably be a bloody huge gate on the place!).

 

[Les W]

(Be grateful for the fact that this is up in Yorkshire - if it was down here in South Wales there would probably be a bloody huge gate on the place!).

Pretty sure a gate was considered but ruled out as impractical for lots of reasons... 

 

[Pitlamp]

(Be grateful for the fact that this is up in Yorkshire - if it was down here in South Wales there would probably be a bloody huge gate on the place!).

Pretty sure a gate was considered but ruled out as impractical for lots of reasons... 

See my first post above.

 

[weathercote44]

What gets me is that I've read that, if that doesn't deter people they will have to take more forceful measures!!  Pathetic!  The only reason the cave looks as it does is that men wantonly blasted it out of the cliff.  I hardly think cavers, with about half an hour of caving, are going to cause a problem.  Check out my pictures on 'Easter Sunday at Victoria Cave' on 'A Three Peaks Up and under' www.oldfieldslimestone.blogspot.co.uk.

Protect the delicate sediments????? They've already been dug out, trampled on and plundered for heaven's sake!

The metal bars are a mess.

 

[peterk]

What gets me is that I've read that, if that doesn't deter people they will have to take more forceful measures!!  Pathetic!  The only reason the cave looks as it does is that men wantonly blasted it out of the cliff.  I hardly think cavers, with about half an hour of caving, are going to cause a problem.  Check out my pictures on 'Easter Sunday at Victoria Cave' on 'A Three Peaks Up and under' www.oldfieldslimestone.blogspot.co.uk.

Protect the delicate sediments????? They've already been dug out, trampled on and plundered for heaven's sake!

The metal bars are a mess.

Until recently Victoria Cave was a dangerous place. Natural England enlisted the caving community to remove many tons of hanging death sitting on sediments that were being mined away by rabbits.  The bars, as has been stated, are a compromise between a "spiked" steel fence and free unfettered access - there are still significant sediments in the cave and the bars attempt to guide visitors toward "safe" areas.  I'm sure John "Lugger" Thorp would give you a conducted tour - the cave walls have survey marks from the early exploration (and you could also ask permission for the use of his survey"

 

[martinm]

Protect the delicate sediments????? They've already been dug out, trampled on and plundered for heaven's sake! The metal bars are a mess.

I don't know this cave, but the fact that NE think that the sediments are worth protecting (and that will be after consultation with an Archaeologist) show that they are  worth protecting! There could be small bones that could be dated, microliths (small flints, handtools, etc.) and all sorts in the sediments. Even if they have been disturbed to some extent. 

 

[graham]

Protect the delicate sediments????? They've already been dug out, trampled on and plundered for heaven's sake! The metal bars are a mess.

I don't know this cave, but the fact that NE think that the sediments are worth protecting (and that will be after consultation with an Archaeologist) show that they are  worth protecting! There could be small bones that could be dated, microliths (small flints, handtools, etc.) and all sorts in the sediments. Even if they have been disturbed to some extent. 

Agreed. the sad fact is that the average caver is not sufficiently aware of the scientific value of sediments.