Video - LIDAR survey of Cwmystwyth Lefel Fawr

IACooper

New member
Sorry for delays, since being alerted to the thread earlier today I've discovered over the last 15 years since I last posted it would seem my account has been suspended and then someone else has 'grabbed' my original user name  :cry: :cry:

It's nice people seem to like the results I've been able to produce.  I'm happy to try to answer questions and provide more detail. I'll look to try and pick off questions and answer them in seperate posts rather than create one mega-post.

In the mean time here are a few other scans:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3K2Z34FqGg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAZry3IPIYs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4-bNM_DGaE

Ian
(the original "Mine Explorer")
 

IACooper

New member
Mr Mike said:
aricooperdavis said:
I'm interested in the fancy graphics! How does the rendering make the bright bits? Is it just the point density in the point cloud? Could the points be stiched together into surfaces (non-manually, presumably!)?

It is the point density. Closer you are to an object the closer the points, further away they spread out more due to angles etc...

Whilst point cloud density will govern how solid the structure looks, this isn't the rendering/shading - that's down to the light shading that's enabled in the software used to process and manipulate the point cloud.  As well as having the X, Y and Z positional data, each point also records the direction of the laser beam that sensed it.  This information is then used by the software to apply shading.

When the viewer is looking along the line of the original laser (ie. you're stood behind the laser looking in the same direction as it is) the point will be brightly illuminated and then the intensity will fade as the viewer moves away from the original laser line.  On this basis if the viewing position is outside of a passage then the 'far' wall will appear brightly illuminated as you're seing what was illuminated by the original laser, whilst the 'near' wall will appear darker because you're seeing the 'shadow' side of the datapoints - you're effectively looking down the line of the laser beam to the source of it rather than seeing what the laser is illuminating.

The result of this is a reasonably effective 3D look.  If I turn the shading off so all points in the cloud have the same level of intensity then everything flattens out and it's very hard to 'see' the 3D structure, especially if you're not moving the point cloud at the time.

Ian.
 

IACooper

New member
As a few have suggested - with Rob being most perceptive - the scan is the result of using two different sets of equipment and combining the results.  I left the scan data in two different colours on purpose to show the differences.

The lower resolution 'hoops' of data are indeed the work of a Caveatron.  As I don't have a 3D printer and getting prints done commercially is far from cheap, I built it into an off-the-shelf plastic enclosure.  As impressive and amazing as that project is, it isn't without its quirks and there is a definate technique to getting the best from it (I can go through the procedure used to do the scans seperately if wanted).

In answer to those who ask about putting a 'skin' over the datapoints - yes this can be done and most stuff online you see done by the Caveatron has had this applied.  This is effectively a case of mathematically throwing a sheet over the data.  It does produce a 'solid' surface, but in the process it tends to round all the corners.  It will also look to apply a skin over everything - so if you have a grid it will apply surface over all the holes as well as the bars.  Now if you're looking to scan a structure that generally has fairly rounded surfaces anyway (err, perhaps like a water eroded cave?) or are interested in the larger picture of the whole cave network rather than the finer close up detail then this is all fine.    Personally I'm interested in industrial remains (ie. mines) and I want to go up close and be able to see and recognise the fine detail - I want to be able to instantly see and recognise a 16ft diameter underground waterwheel, not make out there appears to be 'something' in that chamber, but not sure what.  I want to be able to recognise the truck and hopper in Level Fawr, not just see the hint of something a bit different on the one side.    I've found this isn't really the sort of work the Caveatron is suited for.

My answer to this was to develop my own hardware, firmware and software that sacrifies the speed and portability offered by the Caveatron for accuracy and resolution.  The Caveatron is handheld and has to cope with being constantly waved around in real time, relying on accelerometers, a compass and a constant rangefinder distance to a known survey station to be able to work out where it is - and thus where all the data points it measures are.  Unfortunately it doesn't take much to throw off the data - errors in the compass mean if you repeat things twice you get two slightly different versions with an offset between, before you consider metalwork pulling the compass reading.  The biggest problem is the operator - it relies on you moving VERY slowly if you want higher resolutions.  Whilst each hoop of data is pretty high resolution from the rotation of the scan head itself, the distance between each hoop is down to the speed the operator walks/moves forwards.

As Rob suggested from all the portals to another dimension left scattered across the floor - my unit uses the same LIDAR scanner module, but now it is mounted on a stand. After each sweep of data has been captured it will move a stepper motor a very small increment forwards and then capture another sweep of data.  Because it is no longer trying to work out where in the world it is pointing at any given time (with all the errors introduced by that) it means all the data in that captured point cloud is accurately positioned in space and there aren't any funky bits.  By being able to step very small increments it's possible to capture much higher resolution/detail scans - you just have to accept you're in for a wait in each position and you have to carry a stand with you, but given all the surveys have been done as solo trips I have to carry two stands to act as the survey stations for the Caveatron anyway  <shrug>

On the Snailbeach video above, the whole thing has been captured with my stand-alone scanner apart from the section of underground tunnel - which you'll spot has the characteristic 'hoops' of data from the Cavatron - even then the chamber at the end has used my standalone data (at the recent NAMHO conference Kelvin Lake christened it the "CoopaTron" - I'm not so convinced by that! lol).  I also used the straightforward surveying abilities of the C'Tron to survey through the woods from the lower buildings to the upper buildings so they could be positioned correctly in space, I didn't capture any LIDAR data whilst doing that (it would have been a nightmare as each survey leg can only be about 12 yds long or so when using it for LIDAR!)

By using both units I find it possible to combine the strengths of each.  The Cavetron is able to reasonably quickly produce a moderate resolution scan along passageways which would take an eternity and then some for my standalone scanner, but then where there is interesting or recognisable detail I can use the slower more accurate standalone unit to obtain the higher resolution data.


If people are interested I'm happy to go into greater detail on the operating techniques, construction, whatever,  but I'll take a pause for the moment.

Ian.
 

IACooper

New member
ttxela2 said:
Amazing stuff, how long did it take to produce?

Cantclimbtom said:
I'm just gob-smacked!  That's truly astonishing.

How many hours/months/years work must that have taken??

The Cwmystwyth model was the result of three trips:  The first was about 7 hours non-stop (well, non-stop surveying/scanning - it get's bl**dy boring sat for 3.5 hours watching an automated scan head slowly rotate around before you move it to a new location, set up, hit start and then sit back again!  Lol).  Each of the two subsequent trips were about 3.5 hours each.  After each trip there was then getting on 5 hours or so of processing work back at home.

As part of the Caveatron project is a computer program that will take the raw output from the Caveatron and convert it to XYZ point cloud data correctly positioned according to the underlying Caveatron line survey data.  ...although in practice this data can often require a bit of manual tweaking to get alignments sorted and is why the instructions recommend ensuring you have overlap between the data.

My own standalone scanner saves the data as spherical co-ordinates so I then have to pass that through a computer program I wrote to convert to XYZ data - in the whole model there's one hell of a lot of data points, so need to try to automate as much number crunching as possible!

This is where the fun starts, because I then need to manually align all the standalone point clouds with each other - it's one large 3D jigsaw puzzle because not only can each point cloud be moved in X, Y and Z directions, the cloud can also be rotated around each of those axis as well!  Once those are aligned you can then look to position them in the correct place on the Caveatron data (if combining the two, on both the Snailbeach surveys there was no Caveatron data) - which is where the 'funky' bits from the Caveatron really stand out like sore thumbs.  Finally I can hide the portions of Cavatron data that doesn't want to be seen in favour of the higher resolution scan data.

In theory the Cwmystwyth module could have been done with two 7 hour days underground and then two long afternoons/evenings afterwards.  In practice it was the result of three long Saturdays.


Ian.
 

Cantclimbtom

Well-known member
Is each circular "puddle" a scan location, there's a lot of them, if so that's a lot of 3.5 hours.

How do you tie the scan locations together. Is it a traditional total station approach with a nail in the ground or can you place some kind of reflector in the last location to tie back and chain them as you go?
 

IACooper

New member
Cantclimbtom said:
Is each circular "puddle" a scan location, there's a lot of them, if so that's a lot of 3.5 hours.

How do you tie the scan locations together. Is it a traditional total station approach with a nail in the ground or can you place some kind of reflector in the last location to tie back and chain them as you go?

Yes, each 'hole' is the location of a fixed scan location.  I can adjust various settings, but the basic defaults are 0.22 degree step size and one revolution of the scan head for each step position.  This results in a scan duration of about 7 minutes, after which I'll move the location and start scanning for another 7 minutes - hence why it can get boring very fast as you don't really have time to go off and do anything else, but equally there isn't much you can do other than sit back and wait.  The two 3.5 hour days were a combination of Caveaton surveying and standalone scanning, in rough terms probably about half and half.

As for locating things, if we consider the Caveatron first then yes, that's total station.  There are two parts to the Cavetron, a fairly standard electronic survey tool, and then in addition to this there's the LIDAR portion.  If you're not interested in capturing LIDAR then the range of my laser rangefinder module is 40m, and if you having something to steady it on then you can do survey legs of that sort of range (that's how I surveyed up the hill at Snailbeach to locate the two seperate groups of data).  If you DO want to capture LIDAR data, then the maximum survey leg is about 12 yds/meters/paces for reasons that will become aparent.

As I'm doing this on solo trips I have two cheap lightweight aluminium photographic light stands that I've already checked don't pull the compass.  I fasten a retro-reflective target to the top of each one (about A5 paper sized).  I can put one up (A), then walk about 12 paces down the level to set the other up (B).  I can then take a back sight from B to A.  Walk back to A and take a foresight from A to B.  Each shot takes three rangefinder shots to ensure accuracy and will average/filter the compass reading to get as accurate as possible (but this is still limited to the fiddly calibration procedure you have to go through, and required me to buy a decent Suunto compass to calibrate with in the first place).  I can then move A out of the way, back up a bit so there's an overlap in data and then take a 'passage' scan of LIDAR data moving towards 'B'

To capture the passage data you have to hold the red dot of the laser rangefinder steady on the target whilst you slowly walk towards it.  That's a lot easier said than done!  The Caveatron will ideally take a continous stream of distance and angle readings to the known survey station so it knows where in the passage the unit is, and thus where in space the LIDAR data it is capturing is located.  It's all but impossible to hold it there the whole time, so internal gyro data will allow interpolation for short durations, but if that goes on for more than a few seconds you start getting warnings and must get a 'real' distance reading soon else the LIDAR scan 'fails'.  You can't try bracing the Caveatron against your body as you walk, 'cos if you hold it too close then you get a scan of your boots and legs as you walk down the passage!  So you're holding this thing out in front of you whilst trying to walk slow.  If you take your eye off the target - such as to look where you're putting your feet - then the dot will pretty instantly fly off it.  So you have to be really careful and steady.    ...now imaging doing this whilst negotiating up/down a boulder slope where you can't look where you're going!  ...or whilst wading in deep water where again you can't see where you're going and your hands are full so you can't steady yourself on the walls/roof!  Lol.    ...There's a certain knack to getting good scans!  Lol.

One you've done the LIDAR scan you can walk back to recover stand A, walk past B and now set it up as survey station 'C', do a backsight towards B, walk back to B  etc. etc.

If you're in a chamber than you can do a 'room' scan with the Caveatron.  This means either being located at a survey station, or taking a survey shot towards a survey station and then slowly manually rotating the Caveatron as much on the spot as you can.  It will use the compass data to work out where it is pointing, however it can't filter this so well when it's constantly on the move.  This shows up if you rotate the unit more than once.  In theory the data should stack up, but in practice you get two ghosts of the features with a rotational offset between them.  Clearly one or other, or both, must contain an error in the compass data even before you consider anything metal in the area introducing distortions.

Once you have all the data you take this to the computer and use the provided processing software.  This converts the raw data into XYZ data and positions each of the LIDAR point clouds in their correct positions relative to the survey stations you recorded.  This XYZ data can then be opened in software such as "CloudCompare".  In theory that's it, there's your 3D model.  In practice you'll often find the point clouds will need an element of manual repositioning and tweaking to get them right.


With the standalone scanner that only knows the rotational angle of the scan head relative to the starting position, and nothing more.  I need to manually rotate and align that point cloud data myself.  To get good data you want a certain amount of overlap between point clouds anyway, so getting them aligned isn't too bad, it's just a little fiddly when you work in multiple dimensions.    If I was prepared to include all the positions of the standalone scans into the stations of the survey then I could alter my processing software to take that information and apply it as offsets to the point cloud data - but in practice it would be a hell of a lot of work to accurately survey out the positions, and as the Snailbeach video demonstrates, you can pretty effectively just manually align the point clouds next to each other.  Obviously it's when you come to close loops that you really find how far 'out' you are.  Just need to be patient and tweak things back and forth until the data lines up.


Ian.
 

Rob

Well-known member
Wow, that's definitely not for me! Think i'll wait another few years till it all works properly...

Impressive feat though Ian, especially with with homemade gear, well done.
 

IACooper

New member
Rob said:
Wow, that's definitely not for me! Think i'll wait another few years till it all works properly...

Impressive feat though Ian, especially with with homemade gear, well done.

The Caveatron does work, and all things considered it's amazing what the creator has achieved developing it.  It's just something that works out where it is from a compass and gyros is going to suffer near ferrous objects that give distortions.  Also need to be aware that the Caveatron is built up from cheap 'maker' modules that are generally available from EBay and Amazon.  If you want the convenience of professional LIDAR mapping equipment then there's a reason it costs multiple thousands of pounds.  Expecting that level of performance from something you can knock up yourself from a few hundreds of pounds worth of parts is perhaps a little unreasonable, and if you're just interested in the general shape/structure of a cave system rather than being able to recognise each individual boulder lying on the floor then there's no need to go to the lengths I have.

Ian.
 
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