WARNING LOOSE BOLTS IN RHINO RIFT

[andysnook]

Hmm. Impressive.

Still a bit geeky.

Geeks are good, though; they make complexiticiness work. My computer's constructed of balsa and paperclips but it was touched by a Geek and sprang to life.

Guilty as charged...... :-[  That was very geeky indeed.

 

[emgee]

...why not draw a pool up from the ranks of CIC holders anyway? 

Partially because that was not the intent of the CIC nor of those holding it and partially because the majority of those who place and inspect bolts are not interested in gaining that sort of formal qualification.

Quite agree, but if (big if), it's deemed that the CIC mirrors the requirements of what is considered suitable, why not go that route first? At worst we know they aren't interested, at best it may be less of a financial burden to BCA or whoever, or allows that pot of money to train more bolters.

If I'm reading it right, Bob isn't suggesting people have to be CIC trained/assessed but they should go through some form of check, of which the CIC syllabus seems a reasonable standard.

Surely the skills required to instruct cavers and those required to place bolts are orthogonal too each other. You can be an extremely good instructor and never do anything but the most basic join the dots rigging. You can good at working out how to place bolts but totally incapable of communicating basic safety to a group of novices (cos you do it by instinct for example).

Note I claim no ability in either field.

 

[cap n chris]

While your observation may well be true Emgee, translating it into something (relatively) easily paperworkable is going to be problematic, IMO; therefore I guess this is why the proposal would be to simply adopt the present CIC training/assessment syllabus (specifically the ropework competencies rather than the delivering of training). This is only my interpretation and is therefore probably mildly/wildly off the mark.

 

[emgee]

While your observation may well be true Emgee, translating it into something (relatively) easily paperworkable is going to be problematic, IMO; therefore I guess this is why the proposal would be to simply adopt the present CIC training/assessment syllabus (specifically the ropework competencies rather than the delivering of training). This is only my interpretation and is therefore probably mildly/wildly off the mark.

See your point. Perhaps it would be helpful if someone could tell us exactly what they wished to achieve. There's a trade off between lots of qualified people. Minimal admin. Make it look good for the insurance for example.

Find it difficult to match the paperwork to reality. I know of two approved leaders for a cave system with many approved leaders. THe second was approved by the first. The first apparently doesn't appear in the list of approved leaders. As the first had been leading in the system for years without incident and the seconds only involvement in an incident was to be the poor sod back at the hut who has to make the call on a party of people he never met when they're overtime on the board., I reckon that the fact that nobodies mentioning it is a good thing.

Yes I know I just did but not in any detail.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Surely the skills required to instruct cavers and those required to place bolts are orthogonal too each other. You can be an extremely good instructor and never do anything but the most basic join the dots rigging. You can good at working out how to place bolts but totally incapable of communicating basic safety to a group of novices (cos you do it by instinct for example).

As I said before "The suggestion is to use part of the CIC scheme, namely Part 6.4.4 which can be read at http://british-caving.org.uk/?page=7 . "    Emgee - would you read it (go to page 61 of 69 on the pdf of the full CIC handbook V1) and then comment?  I am unclear as to how we can be more precise.  If you feel para 57 to 60 in the discussion document or Part 6.4.4 in the CIC handbook are not precise enough, then please cite paragraph number and explain which words are unclear?

For other readers, Part 6.4.4 is specific to vertical skills but does include ladders which would deleted.  We are not about testing instructing skills and I am concerned that any one might imply it.  I therefore want to understand how any one might get such an idea; unless it is because they comment without having read the material. 

 

[ChrisB]

Having read 57 to 60 in the discussion document, and various parts of the CIC handbook (but not all of it), I'd comment:

- From a broad understanding of the SRT competence required of a CIC, I'd expect a CIC to know enough about rigging to know where to place permanent anchors. The competence standard for a CIC in "Pitch rigging for SRT" on page 60 confirms this. I'd also expect a CIC to have the ability to safety position herself/himself while placing them.

- Section 6.4.4 does not include any specific test of rigging competence (although rigging would be required to demonstrate some of the rescues). It would be quite possible (as I read it) to pass 6.4.4 using permanent anchors alone. So testing people using 6.4.4 will not necessarily test understanding of where to place anchors. It would probably test the ability to safely position oneself to place them.

- Thus, holding a CIC is an adequate test of rigging ability, but 6.4.4 on its own is not. So, 6.4.4 should not be used to test the ability of non-CIC holders in selecting anchor locations.

- I haven't found anything in the competence requirements for a CIC which tests understanding of the use and properties of resins, anchor location relative to rock stresses or understanding of the engineering principles which enable a resin fixed anchor to carry load effectively and reliably. This needs testing, irrespective of rigging ability.

This is all based on reading the paperwork. I make no claim to be competent at rigging or SRT but I hope that doesn't invalidate my comments!

 

[cap n chris]

on the second pitch the very prominent right-hand bolt for the rebelay is installed through thin flowstone so you can't see the condition of the rock beneath. (There is solid rock just to the left, adjacent to the other P bolt).

The rebelay on the 2nd pitch in Rhino Rift

Given the visibly large amount of flowstone at the rebelay, kindly explain how you would get to the rock to the
left, if the present P-hanger was not in the flowstone?

 

[cap n chris]

I've been forwarded this for posting:-

Rhino Rift Hanger Tests

Following a number of comments posted on various caving forums in recent weeks, the CSCC Bolting Coordinator paid a visit to Rhino Rift on Monday January 15th 2007.

ALL of the P hangers on Pitches 1, 2 & 3 were carefully inspected and then tested with a Hydrajaws pull tester.

ALL of P hangers held a sustained 6kN pull for 2 minutes.

A small number of hangers did exhibit 1 or 2 mm of twist movement.

No hangers exhibited any obvious signs of outward movement which is not
acceptable.

Given these findings the CSCC will not be conducting any remedial bolting in Rhino Rift.

Hon. Secretary
Council of Southern Caving Clubs

 

[Hammy]

I've been forwarded this for posting:-

Rhino Rift Hanger Tests
A small number of hangers did exhibit 1 or 2 mm of twist movement.
Given these findings the CSCC will not be conducting any remedial bolting in Rhino Rift.

Well I would have like to have thought that 2mm of rotational movement would be considered wholly unacceptable (bearing in mind that cavers are asked to report any rotational movement in excess of 1mm) and that these bolts would be replaced at the earliest possible opportunity, regardless of any test pull findings.

 

[cap n chris]

Well I would have like to have thought that 2mm of rotational movement would be considered wholly unacceptable

IIRC there are plans to revise it up to 5mm.

I foresee a debate on the near horizon....

 

[Hammy]

on the second pitch the very prominent right-hand bolt for the rebelay is installed through thin flowstone so you can't see the condition of the rock beneath. (There is solid rock just to the left, adjacent to the other P bolt).

The rebelay on the 2nd pitch in Rhino Rift

Given the visibly large amount of flowstone at the rebelay, kindly explain how you would get to the rock to the
left, if the present P-hanger was not in the flowstone?

Pardon? Not quite sure of the point being made here....by swinging perhaps...??  

I stand by my observations!!

 

[cap n chris]

I don't think swinging is an option; given the closeness of the preceeding belay, the swing around the corner creates a (probably) unsustainable oblique pendulum angle for the rigger.

Put more simply, if the right hand side hanger in the picture wasn't there, it wouldn't be possible to reach around the corner; hence making rigging off any bolts which might miraculously manage to be placed there unusable.

 

[Cookie]

Following a number of comments posted on various caving forums in recent weeks, the CSCC Bolting Coordinator paid a visit to Rhino Rift on Monday January 15th 2007.

Thanks should go to Andy and his team* for testing all the hangers so quickly after the reported problem. 

Thanks.

* Sorry, don't know who the team members were.

 

[whitelackington]

As I said,
B.D.C.C. did an exchange trip in Rhino Rift
last summer
and other than one spit where the thread was a bit worn NO PROBLEMS
All "P" bolts seemed fine to us
We have done massive amounts of s.r.t. over thirty years, most of us trained by Dave Elliot
and I have been  a "P" bolter in the past.

 

[Hughie]

Following a number of comments posted on various caving forums in recent weeks, the CSCC Bolting Coordinator paid a visit to Rhino Rift on Monday January 15th 2007.

Thanks should go to Andy and his team* for testing all the hangers so quickly after the reported problem. 

Thanks.

* Sorry, don't know who the team members were.

Echo that. 

 

[ecowaller]

Hi, Thanks to all for checking the bolts...I have also placed and used many many bolts, I look after over one hundred bolts that I have placed on Chudleigh rock. If I accepted bolts with that amount of movement I would have lost my job by now. I do however feel better that they have been looked at and I take my hat off to the people who gave up there time to test them. I find it hard to believe that there was only 1-2mm of movement but I am willing to stand corrected. One thing I am pleased about is that this posting actually got something done after at least two other reports of loose bolts in the cave. Thanks to Bob for making a very clear debate about competency. I feel that there are many experienced and able cavers out there who would be perfect bolt placers but we do need to know that these people understand the fundamentals of rigging and can look at a pitch head with a critical eye and make good decisions about where to position bolts, it is NOT just a case of joining the dots.
I would like to offer our facilities here at he Rock Centre to run a South West bolt rigging and placing course...the offer is there. Once again thanks for checking the bolts.

 

[cap n chris]

I would like to offer our facilities here at the Rock Centre to run a South West bolt rigging and placing course...the offer is there.

... And very fine and impressive facilities you have too: enough to create jealousy! If such an event was on the cards I'd for one would be very keen to come along!

 

[paul]

Following a number of comments posted on various caving forums in recent weeks, the CSCC Bolting Coordinator paid a visit to Rhino Rift on Monday January 15th 2007.

Thanks should go to Andy and his team* for testing all the hangers so quickly after the reported problem. 

Thanks.

* Sorry, don't know who the team members were.

I'll second that. We (Orpheus CC) had a very enjoyable trip down Rhino Rift last Saturday (13/01/07).

 

[Bob Mehew]

Having read 57 to 60 in the discussion document, and various parts of the CIC handbook (but not all of it), I'd comment:

This is all based on reading the paperwork. I make no claim to be competent at rigging or SRT but I hope that doesn't invalidate my comments!

Many thanks for your comments, they are very perceptive and are in no way invalidated by your level of competence.  Appologies for the delay in response but I have been engaged on other business.

 

[whitelackington]

What is occuring.

Is there a resolution to the failed bolts in Rhino Rift :-\