water icicle, suitable for a novice to srt?

[paul]

Might I suggest the shaft on Jug Holes Adit as a suitable venue for simple SRT training and using a bottom belay.

Its only half the depth of Water Icicle, well ventilated and you can easily talk with the trainee from top or bottom.  Heck you can even walk to the bottom and have quite an interesting trip too.

Kitty

Excellent suggestion.

 

[ditzy 24//7]

Might I suggest the shaft on Jug Holes Adit as a suitable venue for simple SRT training and using a bottom belay.

Its only half the depth of Water Icicle, well ventilated and you can easily talk with the trainee from top or bottom.  Heck you can even walk to the bottom and have quite an interesting trip too.

Kitty

thanks for the suggestion,i will bear it in mind.

 

[LarryFatcat]

Moorfurlong Mine is a nice 11m straight pitch followed by a 5m followed by some nice romping passage.  You need a 4ft+ scaffold bar for the top.  May be less daunting and easier communication than a 32m.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I am unhappy about the combination of additional belay and fig 8. Personally I've never liked the concept of belaying abseilers anyway as two ropes twisting together becomes a complete nightmare. This tendency is exacerbated using a fig 8 which itself imparts twist to the system.

Everyday at this time of year literally hundreds of children are abseiling with a figure 8 while being protected by lifeline.  It is a system that works fine, even on free-hanging cave pitches, so long as the abseil rope and lifeline belay are separated by at least a metre.

 

[graham]

.... so long as the abseil rope and lifeline belay are separated by at least a metre.

One round the waist & one round the neck?  :-\

 

[bat]

.... so long as the abseil rope and lifeline belay are separated by at least a metre.

One round the waist & one round the neck?  :-\

You must know some very tall Children

 

[Christian_Chourot]

They weren't that tall before they fell...

 

[damian]

Everyday at this time of year literally hundreds of children are abseiling with a figure 8 while being protected by lifeline.  It is a system that works fine, even on free-hanging cave pitches, so long as the abseil rope and lifeline belay are separated by at least a metre.

Would you not agree, though, Andy that that is a slightly different situation from Water Icicle? I imagine you are talking about surface abseils, generally down a rock face. Here the potential for spin is much less than down the middle of the perfectly round shaft or Water Icicle. It's the spinning around of the abseiler that causes the majority of the twisting and abseiling down a face prevents most of this.

 

[Steve_T]

It's the spinning around of the abseiler that causes the majority of the twisting and abseiling down a face prevents most of this.

Precisely, a lifeline would be a definite no no in a free hanging mine shaft. Although Icicle is small enough to be able to stop yourself from spinning, this would be an added chance of things going wrong for a novice in a situation where getting to them to assist would be difficult.
I think icicle is probably not a great place to start learning SRT anyway, there are many outdoor locations better suited where assistance can be given.

The earlier suggestion of a person at the bottom of the rope simply has to weight the rope and the abseiler will stop and can even be gently abseiled down using this method.
Alternatively if they are very shakey, a second person could accompany them with a line clipped to them in case they decide to plummet.

 

[ditzy 24//7]

hello all
thanks for all of your suggestions,
i have decided that doing water icicle for my friends first trip may be a bit to extreme and also she wants to be on a lifeline on such a big pitch aswell as there could be comunication problems between the top person and the person at the bottom, we have decided to go and do the shaft in jug holes instead as it is only half the size but also it will be easyer to comunicate plus that way if my friend struggles to prossik out she could always walk ot one of the other entrances as a backup, altho it is possible to help her up the shaft if it is needed,
trip report to follow ....

thanks
ditzy

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Everyday at this time of year literally hundreds of children are abseiling with a figure 8 while being protected by lifeline.  It is a system that works fine, even on free-hanging cave pitches, so long as the abseil rope and lifeline belay are separated by at least a metre.

Would you not agree, though, Andy that that is a slightly different situation from Water Icicle? I imagine you are talking about surface abseils, generally down a rock face. Here the potential for spin is much less than down the middle of the perfectly round shaft or Water Icicle. It's the spinning around of the abseiler that causes the majority of the twisting and abseiling down a face prevents most of this.

I am not familiar with WI but if it has a deep narrow shaft then, yes, I probably would agree with you.  My comment was made in response to Graham's generalisation about this technique rather than in relation to this specific cave.  It's worth noting that a separate lifeline sufficiently offset can actually be used to prevent spinning.