what do you reckon to this bowline arrangement?

[JB]

Suppose there's two thread anchors (or P-bolts) positioned next to each other and I want to create a Y-hang off them using just the rope. I've seen it done a couple of ways but I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on this method:

1. Tie a bowline round one of them leaving a long tail
2. Use the long tail to tie a bowline round the other one and secure with a stopper knot.
3. Adjust so they are equalised.

I've decided that this is kind of unorthodox because you're making the tail of the bowline load-bearing. It's quick, looks OK, and it works but is it good rigging?

JB

 

[Stu]

Has been shown to me numerous times by old hands and on courses. Recognised to be ok. Also, have you tried rethreading a bowline on a bight. Very useful for you type of work as it gives you two loops to work off rather than the one you get in your described arrangement.

When's your level 2?

 

[paul]

See one of Andy Sparrow's Cave Safe videos (Cave Safe II - I think). He discusses Multiple Bowline as ideal in rigging where you want easily adjusted, multiple anchors. Useful when rigging off natural belays as well.

 

[JB]

Cheers for that Stu and Paul.

Stu - L2 training is in May. Not sure whether Yorkshire or Derbyshire yet. I fancy Yorkshire just to see some new caves. Hope the recovery continues apace. If your return trip is open to all-comers let us know.

 

[cap n chris]

What you suggest is OK but how are you protecting the approach to the pitch head? - ideally you'd be tied in as you approach the two hangers in which case you'll want to do a bowline on the bight rather than the knots you've mentioned.

If you've got a primary and secondary bolt on a pitch head approach/traverse then a further two bolts at the pitch itself you'll do what you've mentioned to begin with (since it saves on two karabiners/maillons) and then a bowline on the bight at the pitch which will then require two karabiners/maillons. Likewise it'll work if your approach is rigged off naturals.

It all rather depends on how you're approaching the pitch IMO. Mind you I'm not CIC so perhaps someone out there who is would like to add further to this thread....

 

[Stu]

What you suggest is OK but how are you protecting the approach to the pitch head? - ideally you'd be tied in as you approach the two hangers in which case you'll want to do a bowline on the bight rather than the knots you've mentioned.

If you've got a primary and secondary bolt on a pitch head approach/traverse then a further two bolts at the pitch itself you'll do what you've mentioned to begin with (since it saves on two karabiners/maillons) and then a bowline on the bight at the pitch which will then require two karabiners/maillons. Likewise it'll work if your approach is rigged off naturals.

It all rather depends on how you're approaching the pitch IMO. Mind you I'm not CIC so perhaps someone out there who is would like to add further to this thread....

I think when JB said Y hang it was meant in the context of it being the main two anchors, shared load and equalised, at the start of a sequence. I (sort of) know JB and assumed he would protect an approach.

 

[cap n chris]

OK, glad to hear it. The original scenario left me with an image in my mind of someone leaning out starting their rigging directly over an abyss :shock:

 

[JB]

Good point Cap'n. I misleadingly used Y-hang as an abbreviation for two anchors next to each other. I'm talking here about rigging the first anchors in the sequence (in a safe position) before we start dancing around above the abyss.

The most recent example I've seen is the two P-bolts set into a low wall at the back of a big shelf on the surface above Bull Pot, Kingsdale.

 

[SamT]

Surely the best way would be to thread an alpine butterfly round the first with a long tail and a bowline with the tail then equalise.

So - who can thread an alpine then??

 

[Stu]

Surely the best way would be to thread an alpine butterfly round the first with a long tail and a bowline with the tail then equalise.

So - who can thread an alpine then??

Ah.. but can you do it after five pints??






Acshulllly I cudn't driiink fffive points...!!!

 

[Dave H]

So - who can thread an alpine then??

Only with my eyes closed! :roll:

 

[potholer]

I'd have thought many scenarios are possible, even threaded figure-8s, doing the 'middle' one first and the 'end' one second. I suppose it depends how likely you think significant loading of the knots is likely to be in regular use - various bowline approaches do have the advantage of extreme undoability after loading.
If you have load of extra rope, you could tie off the end first, and then rig as you would in a no-maillon mid-rope situation, tying a double bowline through the second P-hanger, and leaving a good long tail to tie off for extra security.

If the twin belays are sound, and a decent distance from the edge of the pitch or the next bolt, even having a perfectly shared belay presumably isn't critical, as long as there isn't wanton slack.

 

[Cave_Troll]

bowline off number two and use the tail to tie into 1 with a Fig 8

rethread an AB off two and tie tail into 1 with a Fig 8

 

[cap n chris]

knit one, pearl one...

 

[ian mckenzie]

This idea of using the bowline tail on a second anchor is an interesting arrangement, and I had to think about it for a bit, because normally one avoids tugging on the tail of a bowline as it will tend to untie the knot. But I see that as long as the main rope is loaded, this will not happen, and even if it did the tail can't be drawn back thru the knot because it is anchored.

It's pretty clever, actually. And I'm now smarter than anyone else in my club.

 

[diggerdog adam]

The most recent example I've seen is the two P-bolts set into a low wall at the back of a big shelf on the surface above Bull Pot, Kingsdale

Erm bull pot, when ever i rig no mater how (bull pot ) some how it always easy with a good selection of P hangers but why when im on the way back out do i always seem to have created a cats craddle with rope?

my reasoning being now just because they is a p bolt it dont mean that you have to use it and as far as Y hangs go its a bowline on a bight yes i know it meens a bit of extra hard ware/ sometimes depending where i may use a fig 8 tied in with a alpine butterfly to span the gap