What should be brought out?

[graham]

The onus is entirely on the owner to remove doubt.

That's a bit of a tricky one given that in many cases it can be tricky to discover who the owner is, as Pitlamp has previously noted. Maybe all digs & other underground activity areas should be listed on a register somewhere along with contact details for the responsible person?  :-\

 

[Bottlebank]

The onus is entirely on the owner to remove doubt.

That's a bit of a tricky one given that in many cases it can be tricky to discover who the owner is, as Pitlamp has previously noted. Maybe all digs & other underground activity areas should be listed on a register somewhere along with contact details for the responsible person?  :-\

I like that idea, in fact if there's some support for it here I'll happily put one on a web site and maintain it. Obviously not all diggers are going to want to reveal the location of their favourite spots but it would be a start, and I could combine it with something I mentioned earlier, which is maintaining a list of club contacts for people contemplating clean-ups in a given area to get in touch with.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Simon

I could have shown you some modern timber in a French show cave that was undeniably being eaten by various fungi & bugs. I can't now 'cos last time I was there, it had been removed. There is no doubt it was modern timber, though. It is possible that the upshot of this is that the most appropriate way of dealing with recent timber shuttering is to regularly treat with preservatives. Going to be a bit of a bugger reaching round to do the far side, mind.

And what happens when all the active diggers have retired/died/moved to Spain? Who is going to take the maintenance work on then?

It's totally pointless to try to treat timber shoring with preservative once it's in place. You can't improve on, or get anywhere near to, the effectiveness of talalising which gets preservative right into the cells of the wood.

 

[Simon Wilson]

The onus is entirely on the owner to remove doubt.

That's a bit of a tricky one given that in many cases it can be tricky to discover who the owner is, as Pitlamp has previously noted. Maybe all digs & other underground activity areas should be listed on a register somewhere along with contact details for the responsible person?  :-\

The onus is entirely on the owner to remove doubt.

 

[Bottlebank]

Simon

I could have shown you some modern timber in a French show cave that was undeniably being eaten by various fungi & bugs. I can't now 'cos last time I was there, it had been removed. There is no doubt it was modern timber, though. It is possible that the upshot of this is that the most appropriate way of dealing with recent timber shuttering is to regularly treat with preservatives. Going to be a bit of a bugger reaching round to do the far side, mind.

And what happens when all the active diggers have retired/died/moved to Spain? Who is going to take the maintenance work on then?

It's totally pointless to try to treat timber shoring with preservative once it's in place. You can't improve on, or get anywhere near to, the effectiveness of talalising which gets preservative right into the cells of the wood.

I can show you some five or six year old tanalised timber that suggests this isn't a long term solution for caves if you want to pop round.

 

[graham]

The onus is entirely on the owner to remove doubt.

That's a bit of a tricky one given that in many cases it can be tricky to discover who the owner is, as Pitlamp has previously noted. Maybe all digs & other underground activity areas should be listed on a register somewhere along with contact details for the responsible person?  :-\

The onus is entirely on the owner to remove doubt.

How do they do that?

 

[Bottlebank]

The onus is entirely on the owner to remove doubt.

That's a bit of a tricky one given that in many cases it can be tricky to discover who the owner is, as Pitlamp has previously noted. Maybe all digs & other underground activity areas should be listed on a register somewhere along with contact details for the responsible person?  :-\

The onus is entirely on the owner to remove doubt.

How do they do that?

Telepathy?

 

[graham]

The onus is entirely on the owner to remove doubt.

That's a bit of a tricky one given that in many cases it can be tricky to discover who the owner is, as Pitlamp has previously noted. Maybe all digs & other underground activity areas should be listed on a register somewhere along with contact details for the responsible person?  :-\

The onus is entirely on the owner to remove doubt.

How do they do that?

Telepathy?

We've been here before, haven't we. Soon someone is going to suggest dance!

 

[Pitlamp]

The onus is entirely on the owner to remove doubt.

That's a bit of a tricky one given that in many cases it can be tricky to discover who the owner is, as Pitlamp has previously noted. Maybe all digs & other underground activity areas should be listed on a register somewhere along with contact details for the responsible person?  :-\

The onus is entirely on the owner to remove doubt.

Actually, only the owner can remove doubt.

The onus is therefore on the person who is thinking of interfering to make an effort to find out.

The mantra should be:

If in no doubt, bring it out.

If in doubt, find out.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Stop being sensible, Pitlamp. 

 

[Badlad]

So what do we do if the cavers who took the gear underground have given up caving, moved abroad or passed away?  All of which are common.  Do we just wait for the gnomes to remove it?  :

 

[Peter Burgess]

Life is full of what ifs. I try not to let my brain be taken over by catch phrases and over-simplified principles. Sometimes it seems that common sense is not so common as it should be.

 

[droid]

Quite so, Peter .Like Pitlamp I'm supportive of this initiative, but it is rather devalued by the use of this catchprase. I prefer the Yorkshire  saying:'If in doubt, do nowt'.

There is, thouygh, a degree of acceptable doubt before acting. Quantifying this might be very useful. It's Peter's 'common sense'. Common sense is needed here rather than catchprase zealotry.

 

[Pitlamp]

So what do we do if the cavers who took the gear underground have given up caving, moved abroad or passed away?  All of which are common.  Do we just wait for the gnomes to remove it?  :

In the majority of cases I think a little common sense and effort would lead you to those involved fairly quickly. If not there is a very good chance that someone will know. If the owners really have passed away then they're probably no longer interested.

I'm struggling to think what "gnomes" might have to do with anything. Can't we discuss this sensibly? (With apologies to Mr Burgess of course  )

Sorry Badlad - I understand what you're trying to do (and, like any reasonable caver, of course I broadly support it) but I'm not alone in thinking that slogan is probably irresponsible. I'd urge you seriously to consider something more appropriate. Then we can all be with you 100%. 

 

[Inferus]

I prefer the Yorkshire  saying:'If in doubt, do nowt'.

Isn't that saying what has been the norm? I've seen a few rusty (read: completely useless) ladders hanging around over the years. If in doubt, do nowt - precisely what I did, I guess they are still hanging around to this day..

As a club effort we resurrected an obviously old dig - asked in Descent, via email contacts - never found any information. The large ammo tins are still there, partly buried under sediment. Surely a bit of rusting metal does no harm..

Pitlamp; you need to read the Carlwark thread for details about gnomes..

Talking of gnomes, what about signs? I seem to recall a certain sign in Swildons, humorous it may be, but if someone is in doubt they may bring it out (would there be an outcry from the Mendippers if that occurred?)

 

[2xw]

I'm struggling to think what "gnomes" might have to do with anything. Can't we discuss this sensibly?

oh god what have I done

I spose the catchphrase
"If in doubt post on ukc or write to descent or your local clubs, except if it's sweet wrappers or drinks cans in which case go right ahead or something"
Probably isn't catchy enough?

 

[Pitlamp]

I'm struggling to think what "gnomes" might have to do with anything. Can't we discuss this sensibly?

oh god what have I done

I spose the catchphrase
"If in doubt post on ukc or write to descent or your local clubs, except if it's sweet wrappers or drinks cans in which case go right ahead or something"
Probably isn't catchy enough?

I agree that's probably not an ideal slogan. But why does this excellent initiative need a slogan anyway? If the true ethos can't be captured well in a simple slogan, then that slogan doesn't help. (It may be possible to come up with something really good as a slogan but it just wants a bit more thought. The existing one is not ideal because it sends the wrong message.)

For Inferus (couple of posts above) - you make a good point; none of us wants "the norm" to be that stuff gets dumped and then ignored by all others.

Readers who haven't had chance to read my posts on this subject thoroughly may have gained the impression that I'm somehow against this initiative. I think it's a brilliant idea - all I'm suggesting is that it's tweaked slightly so that it becomes even better. (I am currently involved in several cave clean ups myself, incidentally - cleaning up caves is good.)

Well done to the originators of the idea of using this forum to promote the suggestion of getting more folk involved in cave clean ups.

 

[cavermark]

Well done to the originators of the idea of using this forum to promote the suggestion of getting more folk involved in cave clean ups.

Ditto

 

[Peter Burgess]

Cavers who are regulars in a particular cave and know it well will be in a good position to recognise items that have newly appeared in the cave. They are also the ones most likely to know what "non-tourist" activities are current, and which ones are history. I suggest that those who are most familiar with a cave take on the job of working out what can be taken out and what should be left, by consulting with others if required. If a caver is not familiar with a cave and there is some doubt over what should be left, then pass the word on to those who do know the cave. The "Adopt a Cave" scheme was pretty much what I have described, I think. The thing is, once a cave has been sorted out, any new items that appear will be even easier to spot. This is, I think, the common sense approach. I agree that the slogan we are being spoon-fed is not appropriate, but the scheme's objectives are admirable.

 

[droid]

I prefer the Yorkshire  saying:'If in doubt, do nowt'.

Isn't that saying what has been the norm? I've seen a few rusty (read: completely useless) ladders hanging around over the years. If in doubt, do nowt - precisely what I did, I guess they are still hanging around to this day..

Not much doubt if it's useless, really.