Why do we Kow Tow...

[Hammy]

I posed the question is it legal to cave on Leck and Casterton Fells without a permit (professional, digging etc excepted)

Nobody came up with an answer.

The caves are on access/CROW land.

Trespass was mentioned.

Trespass legally takes place on land, in the immediate airspace and in the subsoil.

We cave in the substrata and so are not trespassing.

Why do sport and general exploration cavers need to kowtow to the antiquated access arrangements?

 

[bograt]

I posed the question is it legal to cave on Leck and Casterton Fells without a permit (professional, digging etc excepted)

Trespass legally takes place on land, in the immediate airspace and in the subsoil.

Here we come back to definitions, Trespass takes place on land owned by someone else.
A landowner Usually owns the land to the Earths Core (there are precedents)
There is no precedent that mentions "immediate airspace".
Unfortunately our laws are interpreted upon precedents and it takes an immense amount of effort (and expense) to change them.

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Interestingly, the government are planning to  bring in laws to allow companies to frack under homes without owners' permission. Maybe cavers should get onto that particular bandwagon.

 

[cavermark]

I posed the question is it legal to cave on Leck and Casterton Fells without a permit (professional, digging etc excepted)

Nobody came up with an answer.

The caves are on access/CROW land.

Trespass was mentioned.

Trespass legally takes place on land, in the immediate airspace and in the subsoil.

We cave in the substrata and so are not trespassing.

Why do sport and general exploration cavers need to kowtow to the antiquated access arrangements?

My reading of the many replies to your "Is it legal" thread was that there has been no test case to set a legal precedence yet, but in theory it is legal.

There are many threads on here that suggest a change to the antiquated access arrangement is afoot.

Even if the law is on your side - it is wise to respect landowners - if they fall out with cavers they can still make life very difficult - trailer loads of rubble, manure etc. might accidentally fall down entrances, padlocks appear on gates (is someone really going to take them to court over a locked gate), etc.  They may also own land with entrances that isn't access land where they could block access - and they may well talk to other landowners and give cavers a bad reputation.

Softly, softly.... 

 

[graham]

Why do sport and general exploration cavers need to kowtow to the antiquated access arrangements?

Because we don't own the caves.

 

[cap n chris]

Perhaps we should make more efforts in that regard. (A start has been made in South Wales).

 

[graham]

Perhaps we should make more efforts in that regard. (A start has been made in South Wales).

And not just there.

 

[Pitlamp]

Cavermark has hit the nail on the head - we probably have more to gain by co-operation and being reasonable than by other approaches.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Cavermark has hit the nail on the head - we probably have more to gain by co-operation and being reasonable than by other approaches.

That has a pretty high success rate. When will this be recognised by those who think there is an easier way?

 

[danthecavingman]

As has been suggested before, if permits become available to DIMs then most of this disquiet will be laid to rest. The frustration seen in these threads is from cavers who don't wish to jump through hoops to join a club etc in order to be able to access the caves in question....
I suspect that the majority of cavers are happy to respect Landowners wishes.

Dan.

 

[Peter Burgess]

It's a pity they choose a risky option to get what they want, then. It is a sad reflection on some that relationships with cave owners is probably better than it is between some cavers.

 

[Pitlamp]

Fair comment Peter.

 

[robjones]

Trespass legally takes place on land, in the immediate airspace and in the subsoil.

We cave in the substrata and so are not trespassing.

My mineral law books being mostly boxed up, I can't quote case law but I'm certain that there is abundant case law confirming precedents for sub-surface trespass in mining contexts.  Natural cavities are probably less comprehensively treated but I'd be surprised if there was not some case law that might not be held to be relevant. In days of yore when the UK had a thriving minerals industry, almost every situation one might conceive of was disputed at law at some time or other...

 

[richardg]

We definitely have  got better access to caves now than we have ever had!

This has come about through dedication, and we all owe a debt of gratitude who are out their working hard on our behalf..
So to name a few....

Those who have been working on all the regional caving councils and individuals have all worked hard to achieve this.

Chris Howes of Descent magazine, Caving hero Martin Farr with his excellent publications, Tony Waltham and others through the BCRA  publications, the amazing Andrew Hinde of English Nature have all done fantastic work,

All these people and many others have helped bring caving to the respectable place it is now.

Pete Rose writing and promoting caving through the national Press

And other great ambassadors, several  I especially know of are

People like Alan Speight giving talks to the land owning community around Malham

Chris Fox  had his fantastic relations with everyone with limestone under their land in Nidderdale

Pete Roe up in the Northern Dales

Matt and his mates in the North Yorkshire Caving Club

And there are many more others..

Richard

 

[tony from suffolk]

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is the purpose of the current permit system? Is it to do with protecting the landowners from liability in the avent of an accident?

 

[richardg]

We definitely have  got better access to caves now than we have ever had!

This has come about through dedication, and we all owe a debt of gratitude who are out their working hard on our behalf..
So to name a few....

Those who have been working on all the regional caving councils and individuals have all worked hard to achieve this.

Chris Howes of Descent magazine, Caving hero Martin Farr with his excellent publications, Tony Waltham and others through the BCRA  publications, the amazing Andrew Hinde of English Nature have all done fantastic work,

All these people and many others have helped bring caving to the respectable place it is now.

Pete Rose writing and promoting caving through the national Press

And other great ambassadors, several  I especially know of are

People like Alan Speight and John Cordingley giving talks to the land owning community around Malham

Chris Fox  had his fantastic relations with everyone with limestone under their land in Nidderdale

Pete Roe up in the Northern Dales

Matt and his mates in the North Yorkshire Caving Club

And there are many more others..

Richard
Modify message

 

[cavermark]

Tony - It is probably the legacy of when an access agreement was essential before CROW.
As suggested earlier, if it is changed or done away with, it would be wise to do so in consultation with the landowners in a spirit of cooperation (eg. convincing them that they are covered for liability under CROW). 
Until this can be done (which looks likely to be hapenning), maintaining the current system will keep the landowners goodwill.

 

[dunc]

We definitely have  got better access to caves now than we have ever had!

Is that "we" as in current cavers or "we" as in cavers since late 1800's/early 1900's?


Is it just me or is the proliferation of political/access/council/blah/related etc posts getting a little bit tedious now, are so many really needed? I doubt it..

 

[tony from suffolk]

Tony - It is probably the legacy of when an access agreement was essential before CROW.
As suggested earlier, if it is changed or done away with, it would be wise to do so in consultation with the landowners in a spirit of cooperation (eg. convincing them that they are covered for liability under CROW). 
Until this can be done (which looks likely to be hapenning), maintaining the current system will keep the landowners goodwill.

Thanks Mark. One hopes that based on past experience the landowners will regard cavers as generally responsible folk who will treat their property with respect and render permits unnecessary.

 

[richardg]

We definitely have  got better access to caves now than we have ever had!

Is that "we" as in current cavers or "we" as in cavers since late 1800's/early 1900's?

Hi Dunc, thank you clarifying what was written, yes both could apply. 

Richard.