Yorkshire Surveys

[davema_irl]

Heyhey,

I'm looking for some good quality surveys of a few systems in Yorkshire, but I'm not sure where to get them/if they exist in purchasable format.

Ideally, I'd like:

* Complete Kingsdale System
* Full Gaping Ghyll System
* Easegill/Three Counties System

Anyone know where to get these? Ae they remotely up to date?

Dave

 

[ditzy 24//7]

there are many surveys avaliable in inglesport, im pretty sure they have the easgill surveys

 

[langcliffe]

I'm afraid that they don't exist, Dave.

Red Rose are in the process of resurveying Lancaster / Easegill and I believe Leck Fell, and have so far published (to a very high quality) three out of the four sheets which will cover Lancaster Hole and Easegill Caverns. The last Leck Fell survey compilation was published in the 1970s by Tony Waltham, and predated Lost Pot / Boxhead, Notts II, and Link Pot. It also wasn't very well printed, and is unlikely to be available.

The best survey for West Kingsdale continues to be the ULSA one published in the late 1960s. It doesn't, of course, cover the Keld Head phreas with its connection to East Kingsdale, or much of upstream Rowten (including Aquamole Pot), but it does include the main West Kingsdale passages to a high quality. ULSA may still have them available.

Gaping Gill needs resurveying desperately. The last compilation was produced by Mike Meredith, if I remember rightly, but it was a pig in a poke. That was in the 1970s. The problem is that none of the various surveys of the various parts of the system fit together coherently with the radio location points and the new entrances. The compilation did show the major passages (although Gandalf's Gallery went in the wrong direction and was about 20 times too wide) as they were before the connection with Ingleborough Cave, but obviously not the eleven entrances found since then, and their relationship to each other and to the surface are not to be trusted. It may still be available.

I think that you may have exposed a rather embarrassing state of affairs...

 

[dunc]

As langcliffe points out there is a lack of up to date surveys on the bigger systems (apart from the three new Easegill sheets), which is a shame

I'd certainly buy a copy of any of the above that Dave mentions if they become updated and available!

 

[Pitlamp]

There is an accurate (1% misclosure or less) diving survey of the whole through dive from KMC to Keld Head; this is being made available to Footleg who is doing sterling work on producing an up to date West Kingsdale survey.

There is in existence a reasonable survey of Ingleborough Cave but only (at the moment) in private collections of those involved in exploration. Similarly individuals have their own versions of Gaping Gill surveys (note correct spelling here , not "Ghyll") which have been updated. None of these is in print though. And as mentioned above the Red Rose is deeply involved in updating Easegill etc. If you really want copies of the most up to date privately available surveys you'd need to talk nicely to those involved.

Speaking of GG, if there was a determined team who wanted to start from scratch and re-survey the whole system, then talk to the BPC and CPC because the winch meets would be an ideal opportunity to do this and something could perhaps be sorted out? Just a thought . . . . . 

 

[graham]

This thread is a perfect example of why cavers as a whole need to be far more careful about the archiving of survey data.

I can cheerfully state that I know where the majority of the survey data obtained by UBSS over the last 60 years is. That which is missing is being sought. That which is known to be lost is, in many cases, being re-done - at least I am making plans for the youngsters to do it ... 

This means that we are capable of computerising it (most of the Irish stuff has been done, some of the Mendip stuff, the rest is "work in progress") and will be able to produce up to date plots when caves are extended.

There are still a couple of major gaps, though.

 

[davema_irl]

OK, that explains why I found it hard to get them online 

I was caving in yorkshire recently for the first time, and while I enjoyed the many tourist trips we did, I found it hard to find out how the different sets of shafts relate to each other - the only guide book with this info seemed to be the "northern cave" series, which I am led to believe are now out of print. Even still, I had a flick through them and didn't find them great - lots of entries to cover every little hole, but I'd prefer a detailed description of the more visited systems, with some surveys ideally.

I found referance online to a rewrite of the guide - anyone know if this is ongoing work?

 

[Beardy]

Hi Dave

Northern Caves re-write/update is still ongoing, but is taking longer than expected.

I think that you can still purchase volume number 2 (the three peaks) - covering the GG system.

http://www.northerncaves.org.uk/

We are currently working on what was the old volume three (the three counties & North west)
- which will cover Kingsdale & the Easegill system

Regards
Beardy   

 

[kay]

I was caving in yorkshire recently for the first time, and while I enjoyed the many tourist trips we did, I found it hard to find out how the different sets of shafts relate to each other - the only guide book with this info seemed to be the "northern cave" series, which I am led to believe are now out of print. Even still, I had a flick through them and didn't find them great - lots of entries to cover every little hole, but I'd prefer a detailed description of the more visited systems, with some surveys ideally.

It's good to have an entry for every little hole a) it helps you identify which particular hole you ae after out of the half down or so in the field you are in b) it's sometimes useful to know that the enticing hole in front of you leads only to a grotty 30 ft crawl - saves you the bother of finding out.

 

[paulf]

It's good to have an entry for every little hole a) it helps you identify which particular hole you ae after out of the half down or so in the field you are in b) it's sometimes useful to know that the enticing hole in front of you leads only to a grotty 30 ft crawl - saves you the bother of finding out.

I've always wondered when wandering across the Fells looking into every bloody hole why don't they have a plaque inside like in Mendip ?  :-\ 

 

[dunc]

It's good to have an entry for every little hole a) it helps you identify which particular hole you ae after out of the half down or so in the field you are in b) it's sometimes useful to know that the enticing hole in front of you leads only to a grotty 30 ft crawl - saves you the bother of finding out.

I've always wondered when wandering across the Fells looking into every bloody hole why don't they have a plaque inside like in Mendip ?  

Wheres the fun in that?

 

[cap n chris]

Sounds like you enjoy aimlessly wandering around the fells, Dunc! 

Personally, I prefer being underground.

 

[kay]

No plaques means you spend a lot of time underground finding out you're in the wrong hole. Not aimless wondering at all!

 

[Cave Mapper]

Speaking of GG, if there was a determined team who wanted to start from scratch and re-survey the whole system, then talk to the BPC and CPC because the winch meets would be an ideal opportunity to do this and something could perhaps be sorted out? Just a thought . . . . . 

This would be a tragic waste of effort, because a group associated with the Kendal Caving Club has already done it. Unfortunately, it hasn't been fully drawn up. There is an article about the project in the new (2007) KCC Journal, which includes a small-scale outline survey. This is the most accurate and up-to-date, published survey of GG, it's a shame it's at such a small scale.

It would be good if KCC made their raw survey data available on the web, so that others could pick up the batten and complete this overdue project. I would certainly be willing to help with this.

 

[langcliffe]

This would be a tragic waste of effort, because a group associated with the Kendal Caving Club has already done it.

I remember Geoff Yeadon showing me the survey of the Main Chamber which took up most of his living room... That must have been 15 years ago?

 

[Pitlamp]

Cave Mapper, just to set the record straight, the drawing on page 96 of the "KCC" Gaping Gill system survey is in fact not the KCC survey (although is states that it is at the base of the page).

That particular drawing was obtained from elsewhere and is based on the original Meredith compilation with some passages re-oriented (e.g. Gandalf's Gallery is the right way round) and with surveys of various newer sections photoreduced and added. You are right about it being one of the more "up to date" versions (complete up to late 1990s) but it's not necessarily any more "accurate" than other surveys.

Actually, for passage detail, the 1960s Peveril Underground Survey Association GG survey (published in a CPC journal at the time) is still the best in some ways.

That 2007 KCC journal is really good though.

 

[footleg]

Regarding the West Kingsdale survey, the original 1967 ULSA survey is available as a reprint. On sale in Ingleton, or by mail order (see www.ulsa.org.uk).

I am heading up a resurvey project which is being run as more of a community effort than a club project. Because a system of this size relies on a wider effort than just one club to explore, extend and survey. Several people have already provided their data to be included. If you would like to help with the resurvey or you already have some data which you are willing to make public then please get in touch. You can learn more about the project and our progress here: http://www.ulsa.org.uk/wiki/index.php/West_Kingsdale_Resurvey_Project

 

[snebbit]

Heyhey,

I'm looking for some good quality surveys of a few systems in Yorkshire, but I'm not sure where to get them/if they exist in purchasable format.

Ideally, I'd like:

* Complete Kingsdale System
* Full Gaping Ghyll System
* Easegill/Three Counties System

Anyone know where to get these? Ae they remotely up to date?

Dave

Last time I was in Inglesport I remember there being a couple of Easegill sheets and West Kingsdale, and there's a GG survey on the wall in the cafe so perhaps they occasionally stock that too.

I recently bought the West Kingsdale sheet, I think it was perhaps 3 or 4 squid. I think it's a 1970 LUSS/ULSS survey so there are a few bits and bobs missing such as the ->Keld Head dive, I'm not sure though as I can't seem to find it now.

 

[Dep]

This thread is a perfect example of why cavers as a whole need to be far more careful about the archiving of survey data.

I can cheerfully state that I know where the majority of the survey data obtained by UBSS over the last 60 years is. That which is missing is being sought. That which is known to be lost is, in many cases, being re-done - at least I am making plans for the youngsters to do it ... 

This means that we are capable of computerising it (most of the Irish stuff has been done, some of the Mendip stuff, the rest is "work in progress") and will be able to produce up to date plots when caves are extended.

There are still a couple of major gaps, though.

Not just surveys per se but this applies to all club records of finds discoveries and events etc
We too have a fairly comprehensive archive of materials relating to our club and our local area.
Now that this archive is well established we (Peter especially) are working hard to fill in any gaps.

We found that it's only as the archive gets better that the detailed gaps start to become apparent.

Despite the minor technical differences the two club archives have very much the same aims in terms of detail and completeness.

 

[littlebear]

why don't they have a plaque inside like in Mendip?

Yes that's been rather handy when I've been wandering around Mendip - walking days, not caving - and wanted to look things up when I got back to the cabin!