Author Topic: Survey about Cave Safety  (Read 4526 times)

Offline Amata

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Survey about Cave Safety
« on: June 22, 2011, 10:15:19 pm »
Hey folks! Not sure where to put this but the NSS is doing some surveys about cave safety...much obliged if you were able to take a few moments to do them! It doesn't matter that you're not from the US :) In fact my understanding from Aaron (NSS Safety & Techniques chair) is that they are interested in perspectives from other areas/countries too! And if any of you know about formal cave skill training and such that is done and want to share I'm sure he'd not mind an email directly to discuss things...I think they are looking at putting together more formal training here in the US. Anyway, I'm just gonna paste the email I was sent...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hello,

Please see below and help with the NSS Safety and Techniques research project. We still need lots of responses!

As of June 22, there have been reports of nearly 100 close calls but only 9 responses on cave-skills training. The 100 close calls is a pretty good number, but we need a lot more, particularly on cave-skills. Please, please help us out by completing these questionnaires. :-)

Cave-skills training:
http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/473543/Perceptions-of-Formal-Cave-Skills-Training

Close calls in caving:
http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/407591/Safety-Close-Calls-in-Cave-Exploration-Cave-Science-and-Cave-Conservation

Forward to any caving-related email lists you're on!

Thank You!!!
Aaron Bird
Assistant Professor
Occupational Safety and Health Program
School of Health Sciences
Oakland University
Rochester, MI 48309
p: 248-805-1OSH (1674)
bird2@oakland.edu

Sunguramy, my cave photography and blog website

Offline caving_fox

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Re: Survey about Cave Safety
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2011, 09:53:17 am »
Done.

The US introduction section is very different to what's required over here! Seemed reasonably well thought out questions for once, but was prone to making two statements in one line and then asking do you agree - when I only agreed with one of them.
If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.

Offline Amata

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Re: Survey about Cave Safety
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2011, 03:49:18 pm »
Yeah I  noticed that too (especially in the one about formal training, if trying to differentiate between formal and informal, why are both in all the same questions rather than splitting it up?) I figured there must be a reason...I know the person running it....he's a professor at the local university and had to do all the training and everything since this is considered human testing here in the 'states and get things approved and whole 9 yards.
Quote
As a general overview, this particular research project was reviewed and approved by a critical Institutional Review Board. It took months of back and forth to get their OK to proceed. Furthermore, one of the world's experts in the Health Belief Model (and in survey design) is just down the hallway from me, so I consulted with this individual numerous times to make sure the questions in the project were properly worded in order to collect usable data. This last part is essential to receive approval from an IRB. Prior to even submitting the proposal, I was required to participate in human subjects research training so that I understood the absolute importance of designing a project that would have positive benefits for society. Hopefully this project design will do this.

I still agree though that some of the questions seemed to be asking 2 things in one, making it hard to answer.
Sunguramy, my cave photography and blog website

Offline Cave_Troll

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Re: Survey about Cave Safety
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2011, 04:31:40 pm »
"have you ever witnessed or experienced a close call"?

yes thanks quite a few... except your website only seems to think that i could only see one.
eg "which cave did this close call happen in" or even "which country"
also how close to what does the call have to be?
me dropping a rock on my foot?
someone else getting chemical burns on his foot?
me getting wedged underwater while exploring a new sump?

Offline Amata

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Re: Survey about Cave Safety
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2011, 05:36:38 pm »
When I took it the directions were clear - if more than one close call, do the survey for as many close calls are you are reporting - one survey per call.

I'd say and and all of those...I reported a rock fall that almost smashed a foot and then my head, and also a slip and fall I had (due to migraine dizzyness) that could've ended rather badly. *shrugs*
Sunguramy, my cave photography and blog website

Offline graham

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Re: Survey about Cave Safety
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2011, 06:49:12 pm »
[pendant]

So, not cave safety at all, more caver safety.

[/pendant]
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Offline Fulk

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Re: Survey about Cave Safety
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2011, 07:37:00 pm »
Cave_Troll:
Quote
also how close to what does the call have to be?
me dropping a rock on my foot?
someone else getting chemical burns on his foot?
me getting wedged underwater while exploring a new sump?

1) Depends how big the rock was.
2) Chemical burns – would that be carbide burns? Again, depends . . .
3) No caveats here whatsoever!!!

Offline badger

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Re: Survey about Cave Safety
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2011, 07:41:54 pm »
whilst having a survey on cave safety will produce a set of facts, not sure it will change or improve cave safety, even cave training will not necessarily change cave safety. Hopefully every caver and group caving would have done a risk assessment, (not written but verbally or in there head) and will then take approiate actions to risks encountered. although sadly this probably in a lot of cases does not happen, and even when this has been done, you cannot overcome every risk or even predict or have control on risks, (like main chamber in GG whilst people on the surface are throwing rocks down, other than not go to main chamber)
some cavers may take the opinion risk assessment and their own safety is for wimps, but ultimately when it goes wrong it is us cavers who are cave rescue.

Offline Amata

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Re: Survey about Cave Safety
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2011, 06:07:05 am »
*shrugs* well hey I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to do 'em and I'm sure Aaron and the NSS does too! I can't say I exactly know what they are hoping to gather but it's part of the NSS Safety & Techniques committee study is basically what I know.
Sunguramy, my cave photography and blog website

Offline jaswa

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Re: Survey about Cave Safety
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2011, 10:58:35 pm »
I just completed the first survey and this was the (rather long comment i added at the end):
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I think that in my own experience, informal training has given me plenty experience and knowledge to keep myself safe. Our club runs a basic SRT training session which covers the required basics. I have furthered my knowledge with additional reading, videos, etc etc.

There are others who very much 'need' formal training and some others who have had a level of formal training who still lack the common sense to keep themselves and others safe. This is not the fault of the training, any training is a good thing, but is a reflection of the individual.

Given the basic principles (which i agree, should be given to all cavers) it then comes down to their common sense, problem solving and hazard perception abilities.

I've come across many people who 'think' they are safe because they think they are 'going by the book' but in actual fact are miss reading the situation completely  but fail to see the problem  as they are under the impression that they have been training and are therefore 'automatically' safe in every situation.

Caving is a risky sport. Every movement from the most simple walking (and spraining an ankle), to falling from a great height or becoming stuck under-water requires a varying degree of knowledge to avoid. But also requires an ability to assess the risks and put appropriate controls in place to mitigate those risks. And at some point will be a personal judgement as to where you draw the line as to what level of risk is acceptable balanced against the level of control you put in place. At the end of the day that is a persons free will but it is important that they have enough knowledge to make the choices.
Tim Watts
United Cavers Exploration Team: http://www.ucet.org.uk/

Offline Amata

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Re: Survey about Cave Safety
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2011, 12:42:08 am »
Awesome thoughts!

And thanks everyone who has been filling out these surveys, Aaron texted me the other day "Thanks for promoting the STC [NSS safety training committee] research among your UK caving friends. Getting a lot of responses from them! :)" so thought I'd pass that on to you all! Thanks for taking the time to help!  :beer2:
Sunguramy, my cave photography and blog website

Offline wvcaveman

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Re: Survey about Cave Safety
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2014, 02:09:41 pm »
Hi All,

It's been a long time coming, but this project is finally wrapping up. The major products include two papers and a presentation.

Best Practice Training Approaches for Mitigating Caving Hazards, is published in the proceedings of the 16th International Congress of Speleology.
http://www.speleogenesis.info/directory/karstbase/pdf/seka_pdf13562.pdf#page=32

Best Practice Caving Skills Training Methods, was presented at the 16th ICS and is available now as a recording.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/bosch-bird.aws.mods/presentation/16thICSCST-BIRD+output/story.html

Perceptions and Prevalence of Caving Skills Training in the United States and the United Kingdom, is accepted for 2014 publication in the Journal of Cave and Karst Studies.

Thank you to everyone who participated in the questionnaires, provided feedback, shared their expertise, and support the reduction of injuries, illnesses, and fatalities in caving.

Sincerely,
Aaron

Offline underground

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Re: Survey about Cave Safety
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2014, 01:50:19 am »
Aaron, in terms of 'the United Kingdom', are you basing that title in the third paper on 'responses gleaned from a web forum auspiciously believed to be 'United Kingdom' since it has 'UK' in the URL' ?

 

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