I used to have faith in Petzl Long life P38 anchors. Recently I used my removal tool  to pull out some of the Raumer copies and I was surprised about how easily they came out.

I started to think about the design and thought that actually they are not a good design and there will be a good reason why Petzl stopped making them.

Today I had a close look at one in a wet position in a cave. I gave it a tug and it moved. So I got out my camera and gave it another tug. I will never trust one ever again.

Watch the video.

https://youtu.be/trGz0QD5lOg

Thanks for the video!

Shocking!

I've got over 100 of the Petzl P38's installed at our training centre and we have never had a single problem with any of them in over 12 years. Most are installed indoors but there are quite a few installed outdoors and open to the elements.

One of the main reasons Petzl withdrew them was the inability to test them properly. i.e. its not possible to apply a true axial force to the anchor.

I would suggest the reason the P38 in the video pulled out by hand was down to its poor installation.

Mark

P38's were commented on back in 2012....

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=13950.0

Simon Wilson said:

I used to have faith in Petzl Long life P38 anchors. Recently I used my removal tool  to pull out some of the Raumer copies and I was surprised about how easily they came out.

I started to think about the design and thought that actually they are not a good design and there will be a good reason why Petzl stopped making them.

Today I had a close look at one in a wet position in a cave. I gave it a tug and it moved. So I got out my camera and gave it another tug. I will never trust one ever again.

Watch the video.

https://youtu.be/trGz0QD5lOg

Click to expand...

Put it back.  That is stealing! 

Mark Wright said:

I've got over 100 of the Petzl P38's installed at our training centre and we have never had a single problem with any of them in over 12 years. Most are installed indoors but there are quite a few installed outdoors and open to the elements.

One of the main reasons Petzl withdrew them was the inability to test them properly. i.e. its not possible to apply a true axial force to the anchor.

I would suggest the reason the P38 in the video pulled out by hand was down to its poor installation.

Mark

Click to expand...

It would be quite easy to make a special hanger to pull axially for testing purposes.

I think the design is very bad indeed. It relies entirely on friction between hard metal and hard rock which in turn relies on the force created when it is first installed. If anything changes to reduce that force then the friction will be greatly reduced. There are quite a few things which will reduce the force.

The one I pulled out was in a wet place and exposed to freeze/thaw. It looked as though it had been installed correctly apart from that the rock surface could have been dressed flat and wasn't.

I would think a few years of freeze/thaw would test the integrity of any bolt/hanger, although the expansion/contraction effect would be less extreme on stainless and resin.

bograt said:

I would think a few years of freeze/thaw would test the integrity of any bolt/hanger, although the expansion/contraction effect would be less extreme on stainless and resin.

Click to expand...

I have installed a resin anchor to replace it which will need regular inspection. We will always be learning.

http://www.cncc.org.uk/doc/54

Perhaps this document would be of interest regarding freeze thaw conditions?

ianball11 said:

http://www.cncc.org.uk/doc/54

Perhaps this document would be of interest regarding freeze thaw conditions?

Click to expand...

I've seen that before.

There are plenty of places where all sorts of anchors have been subjected to freeze/thaw over a long period of time. Possibly the best way of assessing the affect of freeze/thaw would be to scrutinize them.

I'm not saying that it was freeze/thaw that loosened the anchor in the video. I'm saying that it might be a factor. The anchor was also subjected to a steady flow of peat runoff which is some of the most naturally acidic water it is possibly to encounter.

I've removed a fair few of these underground and some took an awful lot of hammering. A few did pop out worryingly easily though.

http://www.rrcpc.org.uk/newsletters/NL_V28_N2_A1.htm

Another interesting find from October 91, the RRCPC newsletter, suggesting an expected failure mode for the P38.  Ingleton bolt seminar!

Simon Wilson said:

Mark Wright said:

I've got over 100 of the Petzl P38's installed at our training centre and we have never had a single problem with any of them in over 12 years. Most are installed indoors but there are quite a few installed outdoors and open to the elements.

One of the main reasons Petzl withdrew them was the inability to test them properly. i.e. its not possible to apply a true axial force to the anchor.

I would suggest the reason the P38 in the video pulled out by hand was down to its poor installation.

Mark

Click to expand...

It would be quite easy to make a special hanger to pull axially for testing purposes.

I think the design is very bad indeed. It relies entirely on friction between hard metal and hard rock which in turn relies on the force created when it is first installed. If anything changes to reduce that force then the friction will be greatly reduced. There are quite a few things which will reduce the force.

The one I pulled out was in a wet place and exposed to freeze/thaw. It looked as though it had been installed correctly apart from that the rock surface could have been dressed flat and wasn't.

Click to expand...

I've been thinking about this and what I said was a bit daft. They will almost always look as though they have been installed correctly. I have seen two that I could see hadn't been installed correctly and I have removed them. With most of them you will have no idea if they have been installed correctly and that's the big problem with them.

There a dozens of Petzl Long Life P38s in caves around the Dales that have been installed anonymously. Probably the main reason why the installers keep their identity secret is because they have been misled into thinking that they aren't insured.

If installers of P38s made their identity known I might be slightly more inclined to trust them. But because I don't know who installed them I am going to treat every P38 as potentially dangerous.

I applaud the intentions of the installers but please forgive me and don't be offended if I remove your P38s. It isn't that I don't trust you, it is the P38s that I don't trust.