Author Topic: Justifiable response?  (Read 6623 times)

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Justifiable response?
« on: March 24, 2006, 05:58:17 pm »
If someone is caught in the act, wilfully damaging a cave (be it graffiti, scratching stal, breaking stal, harming a bat etc.) is it morally acceptable to:

a) crucify them
b) crucify them and cut them and rub salt into the wounds
c) crucify them and cut them and rub salt into the wounds and then piss on them
d) a, b & c and then set fire to them

Discuss.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Justifiable response?
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2006, 05:59:28 pm »
Obviously you set fire to them by using a flammable liquid, not wee.  :roll:

Offline Jagman

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Justifiable response?
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2006, 06:42:45 pm »
perfectly acceptable :lol:

Offline graham

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Justifiable response?
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2006, 07:08:03 pm »
d

Why does this require discussion?
Caving is for Life not just for Christmas

Offline jasonbirder

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Justifiable response?
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2006, 07:31:52 pm »
Beggars belief...last night in Giants we decided to explore up the Upper Stream Passage having not visited before...
Squeezing along towards the sump pool I find myself face to face with the initials "RC" scratched into the rock surfce...now its not somewhere a casual passer by or chav would get to is it...so why would a caver do that?
Beyond me...
I'll go for "d" but would have prefered an option that involved electricity at some point!

emgee

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Re: Justifiable response?
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2006, 08:22:34 pm »
Quote from: "cap 'n chris"
If someone is caught in the act, wilfully damaging a cave (be it graffiti, scratching stal, breaking stal, harming a bat etc.) is it morally acceptable to:

a) crucify them
b) crucify them and cut them and rub salt into the wounds
c) crucify them and cut them and rub salt into the wounds and then piss on them
d) a, b & c and then set fire to them

Discuss.


Do you have someone in mind?

darkplaces

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Justifiable response?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2006, 09:24:13 pm »
Can I have B then set them on fire, but you cant set them on fire inside the cave!

Some strange people about regarding wee. Also wee would actually help the wounds surly.

SO maybe its best to tie them up, do the slashing, add the salt, upside down hanging from an eco bolt and leave them for the zombies.

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Justifiable response?
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2006, 10:45:38 pm »
... Hmm, I still think we're being a bit too liberal.

Offline Hughie

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Justifiable response?
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2006, 12:07:29 am »
That's all ok, but what does one do when, at the end of ones dig, running passage is found disappearing off into caverns measureless to man and possibly a sunless sea. But is unfortunately barred by a lump of stall. And there are no alternative routes available/creatable.
What does one do?

emgee

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Justifiable response?
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2006, 12:45:59 am »
Quote from: "Hughie"
That's all ok, but what does one do when, at the end of ones dig, running passage is found disappearing off into caverns measureless to man and possibly a sunless sea. But is unfortunately barred by a lump of stall. And there are no alternative routes available/creatable.
What does one do?


Stick a video camera down there and swing it around a bit till you find out that upstream is an impossibly unstable boulder choke and downstream it sumps.

Then forget the dream and move on to the next promising site.

Offline AndyF

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Justifiable response?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2006, 04:25:37 pm »
Quote from: "Hughie"
That's all ok, but what does one do when, at the end of ones dig, running passage is found disappearing off into caverns measureless to man and possibly a sunless sea. But is unfortunately barred by a lump of stall. And there are no alternative routes available/creatable.
What does one do?


That is a dilema that many have faced, and there isn't a simple answer. I think you have to assess the quality of what will be destroyed vs. the quality of the lead, eg draught, visible distance, water flow etc....

There is also the fact that if you don'r go for it, someone else very probably will...
"Life's a pitch, then you fall down one..."

Offline gus horsley

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Justifiable response?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2006, 09:44:50 am »
Quote from: "AndyF"
Quote from: "Hughie"
That's all ok, but what does one do when, at the end of ones dig, running passage is found disappearing off into caverns measureless to man and possibly a sunless sea. But is unfortunately barred by a lump of stall. And there are no alternative routes available/creatable.
What does one do?


That is a dilema that many have faced, and there isn't a simple answer. I think you have to assess the quality of what will be destroyed vs. the quality of the lead, eg draught, visible distance, water flow etc....

There is also the fact that if you don'r go for it, someone else very probably will...


Like a little-known cave in the Black Mountain called Ogof Dan-yr-Odin which had a superb stal grille that had been very carefully passed, only to find the crawl closed to an impentrable tube.  This was pointed out in the guidebook.  I went there to photograph the grille and it had gone.  There were lots of broken bits lying around.  I was not very happy at what appeared to be wanton vandalism.  Crocodile clips on the nips springs to mind.

Online Roger W

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Justifiable response?
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2006, 05:58:45 am »
I'm probably in the wrong place on the forum for this, but how far have robot or remote control cameras been used to explore such interesting but inaccessible spots in caves?

I saw an interesting programme on TV a while ago where a small remote-control camera-bearing robot was sent up a small square tunnel in an Egyptian pyramid.  Just the job for getting past stal grilles or through very dodgy boulder chokes?

Or is it considered unsporting to send a robot camera through a squeeze you aren't prepared to force yourself through?
"That, of course, is the dangerous part about caves:  you don't know how far they go back, sometimes... or what is waiting for you inside."   JRR Tolkein: "The Hobbit"

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Justifiable response?
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2006, 08:20:22 am »
Quote from: "Roger W"
how far have robot or remote control cameras been used to explore such interesting but inaccessible spots in caves?


"Robots" are on Mars! - but just sub-surface probes rather than Warmbac wearing androids doing SRT while swearing in binary.

Offline paul

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Justifiable response?
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2006, 12:18:27 pm »
Quote from: "Roger W"
I'm probably in the wrong place on the forum for this, but how far have robot or remote control cameras been used to explore such interesting but inaccessible spots in caves?


Various cavers (including those in my club) have used a "camera on a stick" to photograph possible ongoing passage where in order to see (maybe around a bend) would mean damage to stal in a dig.

I know of one example where we had a small passage bending around out of view but t have a look would mean damaging formations. We stuck the camera through on a stick and the resulting photos showed that it soon closed down and noted it on the survay so the formations are still intact.
I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are missing!

wormster

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Re: Justifiable response?
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2006, 11:27:59 am »
I'm with DP on this one however I'd suggest that the hanging took place at the entrance of the cave concerned and a big sign errected with the legend on it "I'M A F******N CAVE VANDAL. KICK ME"

SO maybe its best to tie them up, do the slashing, add the salt, upside down hanging from an eco bolt and leave them for the zombies.

Tree Monkey

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Re: Justifiable response?
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2006, 08:51:54 pm »



            Well done that man, i'll second you on that! :clap2:

Offline bubba

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Re: Justifiable response?
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2006, 09:06:59 pm »
Or is it considered unsporting to send a robot camera through a squeeze you aren't prepared to force yourself through?

I'm sure I've read of old Derbyshire miners sending kids into tight passage to check out the potential.
=:blubba:=

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Offline SamT

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Re: Justifiable response?
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2006, 09:32:21 pm »

Yeah - that was in Eyam Dale House cave. After some digging in there - Tom Proctor was the first person into a very narrow rift, only passable by squeezing along sideways (crabwalk stylee). However, in the floor were very small clog prints - that were clearly pointing forwards, i.e. - the child was small enough to walk down the rift facing forward - therefore very young.

I was musing about the final sump in Duce hole the other day.
It would be cool to get one of those little remote subs for sumps - just send it in - and have a snout about.
Looking at it the other day - it does look to get bigger.

Think I'll just stick johnny or JimL in instead  :lol:

Offline ian.p

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Re: Justifiable response?
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2006, 09:41:23 pm »
i can asure you that the practice of using children to find out if that nasty bit of tight passage is realy the way on or not hasnt died out yet. 

Clarie

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Re: Justifiable response?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2006, 12:23:42 pm »
Some cavers don't even bother with finding a child - they just ask the smallest/ most naive member of the party to go instead.

Which to be honest, I don't mind at all. (Unless of course I've forced my through some impossibly small hole, and been wedged most uncomfortably on the way down only to find out that another (larger) group member found the 'alternative' way.)

Clarie

 

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