Author Topic: BREAKING: Twll Du entrance to Ogof Draenen blocked with reinforced concrete  (Read 6711 times)

Offline alastairgott

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It's a good cave, I've not got very far, but from what I've seen i'll have to agree with someone I met when they said that the "main entrance" series is the best bit of the cave. Wonderbra and Tea Junction were also pretty good too, then there's some more caving, some science and then if you go one way you'll find Indiana highway which was pretty cool too.


Newstuff, you don't have to go far to have a good day, and then you don't even need to go near any of the bits near the surface.
 You should try it, and post a trip report on here! Then we know you've been, we know where you've been  :shrug: and we'll know how much fun you've had. You might even put a smile on Pegasus' face.  :tease:

Offline Pegasus

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You might even put a smile on Pegasus' face.  :tease:

Pff - I dread seeing Draenan mentioned in a post.  Does the forum no good at all  :(  Just more fuel for the forum haters, shame as UKC isn't all bad - am sat here putting together a post for the CHECC Grand Prize, wonder why I flippin bother.....

Offline 2xw

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I've got a good idea for a checc prize, how about a new shiny entrance named after the winner   :coffee:

Offline Pegasus

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I've got a good idea for a checc prize, how about a new shiny entrance named after the winner   :coffee:

 :o

Offline Roger W

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You might even put a smile on Pegasus' face.  :tease:

Pff - I dread seeing Draenan mentioned in a post.  Does the forum no good at all  :(  Just more fuel for the forum haters, shame as UKC isn't all bad - am sat here putting together a post for the CHECC Grand Prize, wonder why I flippin bother.....


Why bother?  'Cos there are a lot of folk on this forum (well, one at least) who switch off at the mention of a certain cave but who really appreciate what you and Badlad are doing to help caving generally.
"That, of course, is the dangerous part about caves:  you don't know how far they go back, sometimes... or what is waiting for you inside."   JRR Tolkein: "The Hobbit"

Offline NewStuff

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Newstuff, you don't have to go far to have a good day, and then you don't even need to go near any of the bits near the surface.

Once the place calms down, assuming I'm not a geriatric by that point - I'll go visit.

I've experienced firsthand the dirty tricks some of "the other side" play, and I'm not giving them any way whatsoever to use it, because they will. If I've been in Draenen, and *something* opens up, it doesn't matter where I actually was in the system, or who I was with, certain people will just say I left it out of a report, or went the next day, or went back the same day... you get the idea. I really can't be arsed talking to CADW, the police, whoever else is involved, when I've done nothing at all wrong and just went caving and some douchecanoe decided they didn't like that.

Permission? Wassat den?

Offline Rhys

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That's got to be the craziest excuse for not going in Ogof Draenen that I've ever read. I like it!

Online Wolfo

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Politics - fucking the caving community up all over the world...  :-\
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Offline royfellows

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I was keeping out of this, but politics. Yes, but it isn't just caving. We have it in martial arts and I guess everywhere else as well. And yes, it does F* up everything. We just have to keep going.

I think all of this is part of human nature.
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Offline David Rose

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Serious query. What is it about Ogof Draenen that means that the short, factual post with which I opened this thread has now degenerated into mudslinging and profanity-laden abuse - despite a plea from Pegasus to keep things civil?

This doesn't happen with any other subject.

I am going to be devoting my editorial in the next BCA newsletter, which will be out soon, to this issue. I would appreciate reading constructive answers to the question why the mere mention of the cave seems to generate such conflict.

It's a cave, not a war zone. Is it possible we can ever get real about this and lower the intensity of the dispute?

Offline BradW

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In any field, not just caving, it only takes a small minority of people (and I don't mean a minority faction on one side or other of the dispute) to fail to step back and look at the wider picture, for trouble to escalate. What happens is those few people generate a polarisation amongst the onlookers and a bandwagon effect kicks off. Before you know it, the silly dispute is linked to all sort of other issues like CRoW, respect for landowners, BCA constitutional issues, democracy or lack of it in cavers' representative bodies, and, who knows, Russian interference, Brexit and the merits of veganism.

All of this muddies the water so much that the most positive course of action required gets lost and ignored, cavers end up suffering years of mutual animosity, and nothing positive comes from it whatsoever. If caving ends up prohibited by the owners of the Draenen system, who could blame them, and in part the fault would lie with the very few who failed to see things in the wider perspective, but more crucially, take matters into their own hands and, let's face it, deliberately cause mischief.

There is absolutely no place for personal vilification when disagreements divide any part of society, caving, karate, or the WI. It achieves absolutely nothing.

And, with regard to those who are put off getting involved in the discussion, I suspect you are in a significant majority, I urge you to speak up and simply say "stop behaving like a dick" to those who appear to simply want to stir things up.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 09:49:08 am by BradW »

Offline royfellows

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In any field, not just caving, it only takes a small minority of people (and I don't mean a minority faction on one side or other of the dispute) to fail to step back and look at the wider picture, for trouble to escalate. What happens is those few people generate a polarisation amongst the onlookers and a bandwagon effect kicks off. Before you know it, the silly dispute is linked to all sort of other issues like CRoW, respect for landowners, BCA constitutional issues, democracy or lack of it in cavers' representative bodies, and, who knows, Russian interference, Brexit and the merits of veganism.

All of this muddies the water so much that the most positive course of action required gets lost and ignored, cavers end up suffering years of mutual animosity, and nothing positive comes from it whatsoever. If caving ends up prohibited by the owners of the Draenen system, who could blame them, and in part the fault would lie with the very few who failed to see things in the wider perspective, but more crucially, take matters into their own hands and, let's face it, deliberately cause mischief.

There is absolutely no place for personal vilification when disagreements divide any part of society, caving, karate, or the WI. It achieves absolutely nothing.

And, with regard to those who are put off getting involved in the discussion, I suspect you are in a significant majority, I urge you to speak up and simply say "stop behaving like a dick" to those who appear to simply want to stir things up.

Absolutely spot on!

Have a quick glance at this: http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

To David, I think that  Ogof Draenen has become the prime battle area where the two sides face each each other out, simple as that.

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Offline Duncan Price

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In any field, not just caving, it only takes a small minority of people (and I don't mean a minority faction on one side or other of the dispute) to fail to step back and look at the wider picture, for trouble to escalate. What happens is those few people generate a polarisation amongst the onlookers and a bandwagon effect kicks off. Before you know it, the silly dispute is linked to all sort of other issues like CRoW, respect for landowners, BCA constitutional issues, democracy or lack of it in cavers' representative bodies, and, who knows, Russian interference, Brexit and the merits of veganism.

All of this muddies the water so much that the most positive course of action required gets lost and ignored, cavers end up suffering years of mutual animosity, and nothing positive comes from it whatsoever. If caving ends up prohibited by the owners of the Draenen system, who could blame them, and in part the fault would lie with the very few who failed to see things in the wider perspective, but more crucially, take matters into their own hands and, let's face it, deliberately cause mischief.

There is absolutely no place for personal vilification when disagreements divide any part of society, caving, karate, or the WI. It achieves absolutely nothing.

And, with regard to those who are put off getting involved in the discussion, I suspect you are in a significant majority, I urge you to speak up and simply say "stop behaving like a dick" to those who appear to simply want to stir things up.

Absolutely spot on!

Have a quick glance at this: https://ogofdraeneng5.wordpress.com/

To David: its a long story stretching back over 20 years.  I got fed up of it from the get go that I've done very little caving in Draenen.  TBH is would be better if ALL the entrances were filled in with concrete (allowing entry for bats of course...).

Offline 2xw

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Both the aikido website and that ogof draenan website are fucking brilliant and I have whiled away an hour reading this drama.

Thanks for this it's better than Corrie

Offline andrewmc

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It must be something about human nature that once an issue like this becomes polarized people become unable to sympathise with the other point of view, lose track of reality and people who are otherwise reasonable human beings descend into bickering and lose perspective. A bit like how people who are prone to believe in conspiracies/extreme politics have their beliefs _strengthened_ when they are presented with evidence against their beliefs...  :furious:

Ask yourself, if you see yourself as on one side or the other, what elements of the other sides arguments do you see as reasonable? How have they contributed positively to the debate or tried to reach a compromise? If you can't see anything, maybe you are part of the problem.  :spank:

Duncan, I will second your zero entrance policy  :wall:

It's the second longest cave in the UK and of national significance. It's also a hole in the ground with a history of deeply-held beliefs and arguments. These arguments have had remarkably little effect on the cave...

Offline droid

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Maybe if there was a little less of the 'it's MY opinion so it MUST be true'?

Confusing opinion with fact.

We all do it though.... :'(
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline Martin Laverty

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For want of an entrance a survey was lost
For want of a survey an entrance was lost
For want of an entrance a club was lost
For want of a club balance was lost
For want of balance respect was lost
For want of respect magnanimity was lost
For want of magnanimity an entrance was lost
Nobody gained - it was all cost

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Contents: a selection of words (reorder and punctuate to taste)
Allergy warning: may contain bias, traces of nutty ideas

Offline crickleymal

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And, with regard to those who are put off getting involved in the discussion, I suspect you are in a significant majority, I urge you to speak up and simply say "stop behaving like a dick" to those who appear to simply want to stir things up.
That's what I've been trying to say.
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Offline NewStuff

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That's got to be the craziest excuse for not going in Ogof Draenen that I've ever read. I like it!

It's no excuse. I've been on the receiving end of some decidedly nasty tricks from the "anti" lot. I have zero intention of giving them *anything*.
I want to visit the system, ideally spend a few days there as it's huge. But until these shenanigans die off, it's not happening.
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Offline badger

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it is quite amazing from David's post, which I can confirm is pretty much what the CCC rep said at the council meeting we have 4 pages of accusations and counter accusations, like Pegasus I dread the word Draenen.

Offline Bratchley

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it is quite amazing from David's post, which I can confirm is pretty much what the CCC rep said at the council meeting we have 4 pages of accusations and counter accusations, like Pegasus I dread the word Draenen.

It's because people ignore the bigger picture and instead obsess arguing over something that should have been dealt with in a sensible manner in the first place. British Caving is a great community and a great thing to be involved in, anything to do with Draenen, sadly, is not - and I hope I speak for many when I say that I'm ashamed of it and it's politics being anything to do with the British caving scene. It really lets it down and unfortunately I don't think it's going anywhere until those continuing to fuel this prolonged mess cease to be involved in caving - with good riddance.
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Offline David Rose

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See my BCA editorial in the new issue...

Offline Pitlamp

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Speaking from a genuinely disinterested viewpoint (I'm a northern caver really) I have to say I think your editorial is very well thought out David.  I haven't followed all the ins and outs directly, as I seldom get the opportunity to go caving in Wales - but the problems at Draenen have really worried me (and, I suspect, many other cavers who are also remote from it). You're right; it's important to resolve this situation, lest it has too adverse an effect on British caving generally. It would never be easy but we have many respected "statesmen" and "stateswomen" in our community, who might persuade entrenched groups to compromise at least a bit, to help break the apparent log jam.

I really hope it can be sorted, to most folks satisfaction, sooner rather than later. Let's not forget that cavers have far more in common than we have differences.

Offline badger

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it is quite amazing from David's post, which I can confirm is pretty much what the CCC rep said at the council meeting we have 4 pages of accusations and counter accusations, like Pegasus I dread the word Draenen.

It's because people ignore the bigger picture and instead obsess arguing over something that should have been dealt with in a sensible manner in the first place. British Caving is a great community and a great thing to be involved in, anything to do with Draenen, sadly, is not - and I hope I speak for many when I say that I'm ashamed of it and it's politics being anything to do with the British caving scene. It really lets it down and unfortunately I don't think it's going anywhere until those continuing to fuel this prolonged mess cease to be involved in caving - with good riddance.

agree with a lot off what you have said, most of my comment was in reply to firstly the initial report from David, and then the accusations he was biased. I can only confirm the facts he stated was those reported by the ccc rep. without going back and reading it again, I don't think he put any slant on it in favour of either side.

the other issue's with draenen have become so toxic from both sides of the debate is unbelievable. looking from the outside I do not know why both parties have become so entrenched that a common ground can not be found. I suspect the whole issue has still unfortunately a lot more mileage left,