Author Topic: Petzl Stop or Simple  (Read 1023 times)

Offline JefeBo55

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Petzl Stop or Simple
« on: November 05, 2018, 09:46:16 pm »
Sorry if this has been asked before!

What are peoples thoughts between a Petzl Simple or a Petzl Stop?

If used with a breaking krab is there a huge difference other than the stop has a camming action?

thanks

Offline Kenilworth

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2018, 12:06:42 am »
There have been several long and absurd arguments on this topic on UKcaving.

"Braking" not "breaking"

No, there are no important differences.

Online alastairgott

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2018, 12:12:06 am »
Probably the best thing to do is try them both. Tony Seddon's usually a good shout, he will be out in the Hope valley, Derbyshire on the 24th and 25th of November. https://www.starlessriver.com/news/?page_id=200

Otherwise, theres a few clubs that are dotted around where you might be able to ask a few people to have a go on their equipment. I know the YSS at Helwith Bridge have a good SRT wall, The Bradford Pothole club near Horten in Ribblesdale also have some SRT facilities.

I'm a member of the TSG in Castleton and we have an area where you can rig ropes from. So it might be an idea to pop over and have a go, we'll probably have a few members out with different devices.

If you don't want to be sold gear or prefer not to get involved with clubs, then another place you could go to is the Derbyshire Caving association who are holding some SRT events.
 Now I look for the events I cannot find them anywhere online. But have found them in my emails.



I've tried to delete any events which have already happened, but have left most of the other stuff in there. (for some reason most of the C's have been turned into G's!

DGA/BCA Technical Workshops

SRT Rigging workshop - Saturday November 24s2018 The perfect workshop for those who are proficient using SRT and wish to improve their SRT rigging skills, pick up tips from qualified BCA instructors etc. Those attending will be expected to demonstrate full S.R.T to a high standard.
SRT Self Rescue workshop - Sunday November 25th2018 Can you help your colleagues out if they have a problem on rope? This workshop is perfect for those who are proficient in personal SRT and pitch rigging who wish to improve their SRT self rescue skills.
Technical Training Gourses

SRT Assessment (Module 3A) - Friday November 9s - places available Skills assessment of your personal SRT. This is an opportunity to put yourself up against the national standard for SRT against a current CIC Trainer & Assessor.
Ropework for Gavers Course - Thursday & Friday December 6th & 7th 2018 This 2 day training course is for cavers who wish to learn the skills of basic pitch rigging for ladder and line and simple non technical SRT pitches. Day 1 is surface training and day 2 is underground.
SRT Rigging Course (Module 4 part 1)- Saturday & Sunday November 24th & 25th 2018 This is a 2 day training course for competent SRT cavers at the Module 3A standard. You must be familiar with a basic level of ropework and knot tying to get the most from this course.
SRT Self Rescue Course (Module 4 part 2) - Saturday & Sunday January 5h & 6th 2019 This is a 2 day training course for competent SRT cavers at the Module 3A standard.
Refresher Courses & Workshops
Basic Caving trips
- By appointment only. These trips are ideal for individuals or small groups who wish to explore more caves and gain valuable personal experience before moving onto the more technical courses. Participants must have attended the Basic Caving Course.
Vertical (non SRT) caving trips - By appointment only. These trips are ideal for individuals or small groups who wish to explore more caves and gain valuable personal experience before moving onto the SRT courses. Participants must have attended the Vertical (non SRT) Caving Course.
SRT Guided 'Classic Caving'trips - By appointment only. These trips are ideal for individuals or small groups who wish to explore those mighty classic vertical potholes of the UK. Participants must hold module 3A in SRT personal competence. All equipment can be provided.
SRT Master class - Sunday October 28s - 3 places available - Sunday January 6h 2019 - 4 places available These trips are a rare opportunity to look at personal SRT and get tips from one of the original developerc of current SRT, Nigel Atkins.
Speciality Courses & Workshops
Cave Photography Workshop
- Derbyshire - phone for details as fhrs rs a very specialised event with limited places. €40 per person
Weather and Flooding Workshop - Saturday November 171h2018 - Derbyshire - emai! or phone for details as fhrs ls a very specialised event with limited places.
Cave Navigation Workshop - Yorkshire Dales or South Wales - Sunday December 9b email or phone for detals as fhls ls a very specialised event with limited places.
Cave Geology Workshop - Derbyshire - email or phone for details as fh,s ls a very specialised event with limited places.
Mine Exploration Workshop - Friday November 30s - Derbyshire. This workshop is run by a cunent CIC Mines Trainer & Assessor. - email or phone for defarls as thrs ls a very specialised event with limited places.
Cavers First Aid Workshop - Sunday January 13th 2019 - Derbyshire. This workshop is day 1 from the Outdoor 16 hour first Aid course and is a great introduction. For those wishing to obtain the full qualification, you can book onto the 2d day giving you the full 16 hour certificate. 850 per person for this one-day workshop.
Surface Navigation Workshop - Sunday December 2nd - places available This workshop is designed to introduce and improve navigation techniques useful to any outdoor enthusiast, especially cavers venturing to those more remote caves. We will look at map interpretation, compass work and micro navigation. This workshop is for anyone wishing to navigate themselves in remote areas.
Goaching Workshops These workshops are designed to introduce the skills of coaching and look at the teaching of the Training Syllabus modules. These is an essential workshop for experienced cavers considering registering for the Coaching Scheme. Please contact us for the criteria to attend this workshop.

SRT Goaching Workshop - Sunday Janu ary 2}th 2019 - Derbyshire (Level 3 of the Coaching Scheme) A practical workshop ideal for cavers already or are thinking about teaching others SRT.
SRT Pitch Rigging Coaching Workshop - January 27s - Derbyshire (Level 3 of the Coaching Scheme) A practical workshop ideal for cavers already or are thinking about teaching others SRT Pitch Rigging.
BGA Cave Leader Gourses
BGA Cave Leader Training (LC/MLA)
Level 1 Monday & Tuesday October 24th & 25f'- Derbyshire - cave Level 1 Friday October 26h- Derbyshire - mines day Level 2 Tuesday & Wednesday October 30d' & 31"t - Derbyshire
DCA Coaching Scheme
Formerly the DCA Training Officers Training Scheme, this has now been developed into the DCA Coaching Scheme which is available to all who are looking towards training other cavers. NB'. lnformation on the 3 levels of the Caving Coaching scheme will be given after the lntroduction workshop and upon registration to the scheme.
Level 1 Coaching Course. 3 days level 1 LCLA training. Oct 24h to 26th.
Level 2 Coaching Course. 4 days including 2 days level 2 LCLA training. Oct 306 to Nov 2nd.
Level 3 Coaching Course. 7 days including 5 days CIC training. Nov 12s to Nov 15h -261h &271h.
BCA Cave lnstructor Courses
BCA Cave lnstructor Training (ClC) Sunday November l2thbNov 1sth 2018. Please call or email for further details and costs on any of the above workshops and courses.
Good caving
Nige t: 01283 210666 m: 07831 449919 Nigel Atkins. DCA Training officer [email protected]

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2018, 02:44:26 am »
Simple = bobbin descender / makeshift pulley / cheap /cheap parts / smoother descent / two hand control
Stop = autolock bobbin descender / makeshift pulley / good belay & releaseable device/ expensive / expensive parts / hand cramp on long pitches / rope glaze / panic can be deadly




Online mikem

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2018, 07:29:51 am »
Stop = ... panic can be deadly

Although letting go of the rope on a simple will also have similar effect! In theory a stop will prevent you hitting the deck if you're knocked unconscious.

Mike

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2018, 09:06:08 am »
Personally I hate Stops as they often don't, but I don't like non-locking devices so I use the Rig (older model at the moment)... had no problems with some fairly horrific muddy ropes in the Dachstein (in fact, since you don't have to pull the handle the whole way, fast ropes are quite nice even with braking just through a Freino) although very occasionally at a rebelay you had to 'bounce' slightly to get the cam to engage, after which point it very rarely slipped (and an unlocked stop would just be sliding down the rope). By comparison, at times I had to push the cam on my hand ascender onto the rope most steps.

Offline PaulW

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2018, 10:25:58 am »

Online markpot

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2018, 10:57:19 am »
Rigs are great,i use one daily at work.I think its a case of compatability with the rest of the set up.I have usesd a rig instead of a stop on my srt set up and found it abit awkward,many due to how low the central mallion sits.i found this had a tendancey to interfear with operation of the handle.Stop,Simple,Rack ect being more elongated and sitting slighly higher off the mallion i find work better.personal preference on which one of course.I use,a stop.

Offline topcat

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2018, 11:27:05 am »
When rigging or solo I use a Stop.   Following some else's rigging I often use a Simple [Kong version].  Tight pitches I might covert Stop to Simple.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2018, 04:09:58 pm »
Rigs are great,i use one daily at work.I think its a case of compatability with the rest of the set up.I have usesd a rig instead of a stop on my srt set up and found it abit awkward,many due to how low the central mallion sits.i found this had a tendancey to interfear with operation of the handle.Stop,Simple,Rack ect being more elongated and sitting slighly higher off the mallion i find work better.personal preference on which one of course.I use,a stop.

I stick it on a quickdraw dogbone (the little tiny sling on a quickdraw) to extend it out a bit (albeit I have started backing this up with a bit of 5mm dyneema, which also helps prevent me dropping it...)

Offline Keris82

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2018, 05:29:20 pm »
I prefer a stop to a simple for the braking action. It just feels safer for me

Online markpot

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2018, 09:28:13 pm »
Andrew,i dont know if you can buy them separately but titan climbing do a long mallion as part of there loweroff setup,might be a good subsitute for your dogbone.two different lengths that are substantially longer than any standard biners/maillions.might be worth  look if its a improvement to your set up?

Offline JoW

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2018, 07:05:28 am »
You may find that if you come to start rigging it is rather easier to protect yourself with a stop than a simple too.

Online mikem

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2018, 04:23:51 pm »
Although when rigging you should always lock off a stop, the same as a simple, anyway...

Offline JoW

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2018, 05:57:44 pm »
Although when rigging you should always lock off a stop, the same as a simple, anyway...

You should, although when rigging a traverse the usual recommendation is that you should tie a knot around a metre down the rope from the stop as a back up rather than locking it off as falling onto a locked off stop shock loads the rope at a rather higher force than one would wish for...

Offline Alex

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2018, 01:02:59 pm »
Problem with that idea JoW, although makes it safe is going to take a lot longer to do it like that. Falling onto my stop is always in the back of my mind, but the rope is normally as tight as I can make it meaning its a swing rather than a fall. It's unlikely most will do it like that if they have a long traverse to rig with wide gaps, because of the "faff".  It's loads of faff to rig travereses with a descending device anyway as you then have to adjust the rope length after reaching the next anchor (to account for the slack in the rope the stop/simple uses), unless you trust the anchor enough to clip directly into before tieing the next knot.  :doubt: I don't recommend that , I can think of a few accidents this has caused.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 01:17:57 pm by Alex »
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline JoW

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Re: Petzl Stop or Simple
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2018, 05:00:12 pm »
I think perhaps you misunderstood what I meant... You tie a knot (overhand is fine) in the rope below the stop to back it up (doesn't take any longer than locking it off...) when you reach the anchor I would clip into the anchor and pull enough rope through the stop to tie the knot behind me avoiding the aforementioned adjusting afterwards. The stop will be looser but as you have your cowtail(s) in it is only a back up. If the bolts are close enough together you can of course omit the descender and just use cowstails clipped into the knot loops accordingly.

Using the knot in the rope below the stop means if you do fall on it you will fall a little more perhaps but it will be a dynamic shock load which is far preferable to the static shock load of a locked off stop.