Author Topic: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access  (Read 1633 times)

Offline JJM

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Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« on: March 27, 2019, 11:57:11 am »
I've been wondering how many caves / systems make BCA insurance/membership a condition of access. Do you know of any others?

BCA REQUIRED:


BCA RECOMMENDED:
  • Mendip - Charterhouse CC caves (GB, Charterhouse, Longwood, Rhino Rift) : CCC Ltd recommends, but does not require, for your own and your caving companions benefit that you are insured. British Caving Association (B.C.A.) member clubs are able to issue temporary public liability caving insurance to their guests for a small fee. http://charterhouse-caving-company.ltd.uk/
  • -
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 12:08:51 pm by JJM »
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Offline Benfool

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2019, 12:01:54 pm »
Required:

Dan Y Ogof
White Scar
Otter Hole

Offline royfellows

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2019, 12:25:58 pm »
All mines under CAL remit.
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Online PeteHall

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2019, 12:26:59 pm »
I can't find an official statement on the subject, but I believe that membership of the CDG is required for diving access to Wookey Hole. BCA insurance is a prerequisite of CDG membership, but whether this has an impact on the access agreement, I don't know. I believe that exceptions are occasionally made for divers visiting from abroad, but I am not sure what other requirements might be placed on them.
I'm also not clear on any insurance or club membership requirements for non-diving access to the cave beyond the show cave... I'm sure others on here can clarify.

I'm not sure it is so clear cut at White Scar:
Quote
We welcome responsible cavers who explore the delicate beauty of the underground environment with respect, so the access fee per person is a very low £2.50. Access is available to groups of two or more who are members of a caving club affiliated to a recognised body such as the British Caving Association.
This suggests that a member of a foreign club could gain access as long as they are affiliated to a recognised body; they may well not benefit from a similar insurance policy.
It is therefore not clear to me if insurance has anything to do with it, or if this is about being a "responsible caver".
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Offline GarDouth

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2019, 12:50:33 pm »
There is more to it than just being required to access some caves. It is a useful reassurance to land owners when negotiating access arrangements and although they may not specifically require insurance it may well have been used to "close the deal" on access, particularly those caves not on access land. I'm pretty sure this has been the case in several situations in the Dales at least.

Although not really the original question, it's important to remember that the money members pay to BCA goes far beyond insurance. It directly funds regional councils among many other things. Much of the good work the CNCC does (conservation, entrance building, repairs, anchors, training etc) could not have happened without BCA funding. It really does make a difference to all cavers (even those that don't pay into it).
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Offline JohnMCooper

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2019, 01:04:14 pm »
Quote
British Caving Association (B.C.A.) member clubs are able to issue temporary public liability caving insurance to their guests for a small fee. http://charterhouse-caving-company.ltd.uk/

Is this correct?

My understanding is that insurance can only be sold by someone who has the requisite training.

Offline Cavematt

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2019, 01:08:55 pm »
To clarify a technicality, the BCA does not sell insurance; it provides it as a benefit of membership.
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Offline JohnMCooper

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2019, 01:24:18 pm »
See
Quote
http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=legal_insurance:faq_2018-1.pdf
for more details.

In particular note the FAQs:

Quote
52
Q: How do we insure temporary members (e.g. novices coming on their first caving trip)?
A:
Clubs will automatically be covered for temporary members so long as they have paid for all of their normal
members as either caving or non-caving members of the scheme. There is no a limit on the number of
temporary members a club can take caving in any given year, but, see 58 and 59 below:
53
Q: How long does temporary member cover last?
A:
Temporary cover is given to prospective members to attend up to 4 visits to a club. Upon the 5th visit the
member must join the BCA in order to be insured.
54
Q: Will clubs still have to keep records of temporary membership?
A:
Yes. The following information of temporary members must be recorded:
Σ Names
Σ Addresses
Σ Dates they went caving
Σ Where they went caving
These need to be recorded and sent to BCA at / or before the end of each year.


Offline JJM

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2019, 01:45:13 pm »
Why does everything on this forum have to become political for no reason? If you want to dispute the wording of access rules on Charterhouse CC' website, please contact THEM or start a new thread. It's not relevant.
Equally, this is not the thread to discuss the merits of the BCA as an organisation, their duties & activities, the details of their insurance coverage of the fact that it's a membership and not insurance.

Please stick to a simple factual list of caves with a link to where it says BCA is required. Don't dive into details if those websites / access conditions are "right" / "fair" / "correct". If you want to do that, make a separate thread.

thanks @Benfool for your additions
@royfellows : care to elaborate? I can't readily recall the acronym...


Updated list:

BCA REQUIRED:


BCA RECOMMENDED:
  • Mendip - Charterhouse CC caves (GB, Charterhouse, Longwood, Rhino Rift) : CCC Ltd recommends, but does not require, for your own and your caving companions benefit that you are insured. British Caving Association (B.C.A.) member clubs are able to issue temporary public liability caving insurance to their guests for a small fee. http://charterhouse-caving-company.ltd.uk/
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 02:14:31 pm by JJM »
It's unbelievable what people are willing to do in the name of conformity

Offline Benfool

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2019, 01:54:34 pm »
Might be worth mentioning, that the conditions for Peak Cavern, include all parts of the Peak/Speedwell system. So this includes Titan, JH, Speedwell, Peak Cavern as well as the Swine Hole.

B

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2019, 01:58:50 pm »
Access to Bagshawe Cavern in the Peak District requires that you quote the BCA insurance/membership no. for all members of the party.

Access details for other caves are on the DCA website so you can check which require BCA insurance. I think that some caves on Chatsworth Estate land require this as a condition of entry but you'd need to check which ones.

Offline royfellows

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2019, 02:09:08 pm »

@royfellows : care to elaborate? I can't readily recall the acronym...


Cave Access Ltd
Mines on land owned by Welsh Government, formally owned by Forestry Commission Wales, plus one, Temple Mine in mid Wales owned by Natural Resources Wales. Changes in ownership following devolution.

Full schedule on our website, www.caveaccess.co.uk
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Offline Madness

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2019, 07:58:28 pm »
In Derbyshire/Peak District there's Snake Mine and Lathkill Head Garden Path Entrance also

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2019, 10:12:07 pm »
There is a big difference between 'BCA Required' and 'BCA or equivalent insurance required'. The former is significantly less open than the second...

(As a side note this is a discussion forum. Making the first post does not give you the right to dictate the terms of discussion.)

Offline JJM

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2019, 12:01:20 pm »
thanks @Benfool, @royfellows, @Jenny P @Madness for your additions

Updated list:

BCA REQUIRED:
  • Yorkshire - White Scar cave: Access is available to groups of two or more who are members of a caving club affiliated to a recognised body such as the British Caving Association. : https://whitescarcave.co.uk/group-visits/caving
  • Wales - Dan Yr Ogof : Particular attention is drawn to the requirement that all members of the party must have BCA Public Liability Insurance. Please note that the BCA insurance is the only insurance policy recognised by the showcave's management. : http://www.dyo.org.uk/access.html
  • Derbyshire - Bagshawe Cavern : Let Amanda have proof of current BCA liability insurance : https://registry.thedca.org.uk/sitedetails.php?id=218
  • Derbyshire - Snake mine : For each proposed visit Mrs Slater would like a list of names, addresses and BCA insurance numbers for all members of the party : https://registry.thedca.org.uk/registry/sitedetails.php?id=400
  • Wales - various mines where access is managed by Cave Access Ltd (CAL) : Access to CAL sites is freely available to all cavers and mine explorers with BCA insurance (either as a Direct Insured Member or Club Insured Member) http://www.caveaccess.co.uk/access.html
    • Parc Lead Mine
    • Rhiwbach Slate Quarry/Mine
    • Bryneglwys Slate Quarry/Mine
    • Hendre Ddu Slate Quarry
    • Cae Coch Sulphur Mine
    • Henfwlch Mine
    • Minilyn Slate Quarry
    • Talybont Mine (Allt y Crib)
    • Gwrych Castle Mines
    • Temple Mine
    • Hafna Mine
BCA or equivalent REQUIRED:



BCA RECOMMENDED:

  • Mendip - Charterhouse CC caves (GB, Charterhouse, Longwood, Rhino Rift) : CCC Ltd recommends, but does not require, for your own and your caving companions benefit that you are insured. British Caving Association (B.C.A.) member clubs are able to issue temporary public liability caving insurance to their guests for a small fee. http://charterhouse-caving-company.ltd.uk/
[/quote]
It's unbelievable what people are willing to do in the name of conformity

Online Pete K

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2019, 02:48:30 pm »
Derbyshire - Holmebank Chert Mine (BCA or equiv)
https://peakdistrictcaving.info/home/the-caves/wye/holme-bank-chert-mine
(I know it currently says stay away on website)

Offline kay

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2019, 06:15:27 pm »

Updated list:

BCA REQUIRED:
  • Yorkshire - White Scar cave: Access is available to groups of two or more who are members of a caving club affiliated to a recognised body such as the British Caving Association. :


Shouldn't this be in the "BCA or Equivalent Required" list?[/list]

Offline JJM

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2019, 09:11:09 am »

Updated list:

BCA REQUIRED:
  • Yorkshire - White Scar cave: Access is available to groups of two or more who are members of a caving club affiliated to a recognised body such as the British Caving Association. :


Shouldn't this be in the "BCA or Equivalent Required" list?[/list]

for british cavers, is there a different "recognised body" ? (real question)
It's unbelievable what people are willing to do in the name of conformity

Offline kay

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2019, 07:40:03 pm »

Updated list:

BCA REQUIRED:
  • Yorkshire - White Scar cave: Access is available to groups of two or more who are members of a caving club affiliated to a recognised body such as the British Caving Association. :

    I was wondering whether a club could be affiliated to one of the regional bodies without actually being a member of the BCA; or maybe one of the general outdoor clubs which has caving as just one of their activities and who might be affiliated to BMC but not BCA. I agree that in practical terms affiliation to a recgonised body means affiliated to BCA, but it isn't actually the same, and if in future years BCA was succeeded  by a different recognised body (I'm not suggesting this should happen" then members of caving clubs affiliated to the new body would still have access to White Scar, whereas they wouldn't have access to caves in the first list. So there is a theoretical difference if not a practical difference.


Shouldn't this be in the "BCA or Equivalent Required" list?[/list]

for british cavers, is there a different "recognised body" ? (real question)

Offline 2xw

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2019, 07:46:28 pm »
Wouldn't snowcard and other cover work in the UK?

Offline mikem

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2019, 11:00:02 pm »
 Depends on the wording.

Offline JJM

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2019, 01:13:28 pm »
thanks @Benfool, @royfellows, @Jenny P @Madness for your additions

Updated list:

BCA REQUIRED:
  • Yorkshire - White Scar cave: Access is available to groups of two or more who are members of a caving club affiliated to a recognised body such as the British Caving Association. : https://whitescarcave.co.uk/group-visits/caving
  • Wales - Dan Yr Ogof : Particular attention is drawn to the requirement that all members of the party must have BCA Public Liability Insurance. Please note that the BCA insurance is the only insurance policy recognised by the showcave's management. : http://www.dyo.org.uk/access.html
  • Derbyshire - Bagshawe Cavern : Let Amanda have proof of current BCA liability insurance : https://registry.thedca.org.uk/sitedetails.php?id=218
  • Derbyshire - Snake mine : For each proposed visit Mrs Slater would like a list of names, addresses and BCA insurance numbers for all members of the party : https://registry.thedca.org.uk/registry/sitedetails.php?id=400
  • Mendip - St Chuthberts Swallet: 11 : All cavers must have current BCA insurance : from "St. Cuthberts Swallet Rules dated 07/04.2018" - not currently available online, but provided on booking.
  • Wales - various mines where access is managed by Cave Access Ltd (CAL) : Access to CAL sites is freely available to all cavers and mine explorers with BCA insurance (either as a Direct Insured Member or Club Insured Member) http://www.caveaccess.co.uk/access.html
    • Parc Lead Mine
    • Rhiwbach Slate Quarry/Mine
    • Bryneglwys Slate Quarry/Mine
    • Hendre Ddu Slate Quarry
    • Cae Coch Sulphur Mine
    • Henfwlch Mine
    • Minilyn Slate Quarry
    • Talybont Mine (Allt y Crib)
    • Gwrych Castle Mines
    • Temple Mine
    • Hafna Mine
BCA or equivalent liability insurance REQUIRED:



BCA RECOMMENDED:

  • Mendip - Charterhouse CC caves (GB, Charterhouse, Longwood, Rhino Rift) : CCC Ltd recommends, but does not require, for your own and your caving companions benefit that you are insured. British Caving Association (B.C.A.) member clubs are able to issue temporary public liability caving insurance to their guests for a small fee. http://charterhouse-caving-company.ltd.uk/
It's unbelievable what people are willing to do in the name of conformity

Online Badlad

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2019, 03:37:21 pm »
Is it really that few?  My perception was that many more caves required PLI.  In the north, Fairy Holes, Birksfell, Boreham I think all those agreements mention BCA insurance.  The likes of Easegill, Leck and Excalibar require you to be in a BCA member club at least.  Renegotiation of some arrangements on Ingleborough and Penyghent in recent years have removed the requirement for PLI or national organisation membership and this is set to continue.

I can understand the requirement for a show cave business as cavers may well be mingling with the paying tourists. Otherwise it seems a belt and braces approach by the landowner/management group.


Offline Madness

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2019, 10:13:32 pm »
Might be worth mentioning, that the conditions for Peak Cavern, include all parts of the Peak/Speedwell system. So this includes Titan, JH, Speedwell, Peak Cavern as well as the Swine Hole.

B

JH might have link into Peak, but I don't think you need BCA insurance cover for it.

Online Pete K

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Re: Caves requiring BCA insurance/membership for access
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2019, 10:41:00 pm »
I think you're technically supposed to, but in practice it may not be checked.