Long Kin East CNCC topo

[tobyk]

Recently I went on a trip into LKE, but unfortunately the rope was 5m too short to touch the bottom of the big pitch. We took a 50m + 35m ropes, and I put a couple of extra rebelays in to remove rub on the 50m pitch. The 50m didn’t make it anywhere close to the ‘Y’ hang rope change point, where there’s also only one bolt (as far as we could tell).
Had to change ropes on the ‘first’ rebelay on the topo.
Not sure if anyone else has had this problem here, but would probably recommend a 55m + 40m for a comfortable decent, with a bit of rope in the bank for some flexibility.

Cheers, Toby

[MarkS]

Have you reported it?

[tobyk]

No I haven’t actually, didn’t realise you could do that.

Thanks!

[Ian Ball]

Are your 55m and 35m ropes actually 55m and 35m?   

Maybe they are even longer?  If you were short by 5m with a 57m and a 38m, that's 10m short.

Or perhaps you went past the point of the shared anchor rebelay and were looking to the last rebelay bolt as the shared anchor?  Unlikely if you couldn't reach the floor though.

In my eyes cncc rope suggestions are conservative to cover caver's choice of knot use and slack in traverse sections but if there is a need for multiple rebelays to avoid rope rub not shown on the topo then that is quite an issue?

[CNCC]

Hi Toby

Thanks for reporting this. We are always keen to hear about such issues and to investigate them. We're happy to update the topo based on this feedback. I doubt anyone will begrudge being recommended to carry an additional 10m of rope length.

I had a trip down LKE last year myself but don't remember such issues, but I always add my own 10% to rope lengths for contingency.

When you say that you put in additional rebelays, do you mean additional to those shown on the topo? Could they have been done as deviations instead (thus saving rope usage that would not have been factored in)? I am just wondering whether the description/topo could benefit from further clarification on this matter.

As Ian has suggested, could you re-measure the ropes you actually used and report on their actual length? I was certainly shocked last year to find one of my 55m ropes was actually 48m due to continued shrinkage.

Matt Ewles
CNCC Communications Officer

[Alex]

We had the same issue a few years ago, I thought we reported it back then but I guess not. We ended up taking out the y-hang and using single anchors instead and could just about touch the ground with the recommended rope.

Oh wait that was LKW, nevermind.

[tobyk]

Hi Matt,
Thanks for this.
Even without the rebelays the 50 wouldn’t have made it to the switch rope point. TBH the 35m rope if belayed in the correct place would probably make it to the bottom, as I had to switch ropes too soon. Still didn’t locate the second bolt at the ‘Y’ hang though.
I think I might go back in a couple of weeks to take another look.
There is a plethora of bolts at the pitch head, which does make it slightly confusing. We just stuck to the staple type glue ins though.

Thanks, Toby

[Ian Ball]

The topo I have from back in the day shows an 8m, a 36m, a 48m and a 33m.

I am someone who would begrudge 10m of unnecessary rope 

[CNCC]

Hi Toby

I agree that the rigging in LKE is confusing as there are a number of non-approved anchors in the cave which pre-date the CNCC anchors. The CNCC rigging assumes use exclusively of the traditional P-bolt anchors that were installed here (see images here https://cncc.org.uk/fixed-aids/) and not any others that you might encounter. Any additional rigging beyond what is on the topo will of course engulf more rope.

We really appreciate your offer to return and have a look at this in more detail

For now, I've added a warning on the CNCC website to alert groups booking access to LKE to consider adding a little length onto the ropes, and once you've reported back we can either update the topo permanently with the longer lengths, or clarify the rigging more clearly in the description, or remove the warning and keep the rope lengths as they are.

Cheers
Matt

[andrewmc]

In my eyes cncc rope suggestions are conservative to cover caver's choice of knot use and slack in traverse sections

Maybe the rope lengths on the topo should be kept deliberately tight on traverse sections to discourage sloppy rigging :P

[HardenClimber3]

In my eyes cncc rope suggestions are conservative to cover caver's choice of knot use and slack in traverse sections

Maybe the rope lengths on the topo should be kept deliberately tight on vertical pitches so rope ends don't get muddy and trampled :P

Fixed that....

[damian]

Attached is the original topo (of mine) that was used to create the CNCC one ... the rope lengths I give are the ABSOLUTE minimum with everything rigged super tight. I notice they have only be rounded up by 4-5% when put onto the CNCC topo. This is a lot less than most of the others I have done. On the main pitch I would have thought 55m (or even 60m) and 40m would bring the typical rounding much more into line with other CNCC topos.