Heard from a reputable source that the Hill Inn, Chapel-le-Dale will not be repoening as a pub post-covid. Big shame since it has a lot of caving history. Wondered if any other caving pubs have fallen by the wayside in the same circumstances?

Yes it's a shame that one, as I was staying in the campsite across the road, and wanted to go in for a pint or two. Though I did see some people out for beers and I heard from the campsite owner that they may re-open if Covid rules are removed.

BCA should put its hand in its pocket and buy the place. It would make an excellent National Caving Centre.

Mark

Alex said:

.... and I heard from the campsite owner that they may re-open if Covid rules are removed.

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My correspondent was fairly certain that it was being re-cast pretty permanently as a residential hotel only - ie no public bar. Lets just hope.....

Having kipped for free in the attic before now  won't be rushing to pay for the privilege...

Royal Oak Hendre North Wales not re - opening

Mark Wright said:

BCA should put its hand in its pocket and buy the place. It would make an excellent National Caving Centre.

Mark

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We could put down a decent deposit but would need a fairly hefty mortgage for the other ?400k ish 

Which I guess is part of the pubs around abouts closing - with housing prices exploding I'm guessing lots of landlords are eyeing up a sale?

Miners Arms in Nenthead never reopened last summer. Not quite the same having your own beer at home after a trip.

Old Hill Inn doesn't seem to be up for sale. Think they are expecting the rooms & camping to be fully booked this summer, so won't have spare capacity until things calm down again. Having said that, they've been concentrating on food rather than beer for a few years now.

Not lost to Covid. Bankrupted due to government mismanagement.

2xw said:

Mark Wright said:

BCA should put its hand in its pocket and buy the place. It would make an excellent National Caving Centre.

Mark

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We could put down a decent deposit but would need a fairly hefty mortgage for the other ?400k ish 

Which I guess is part of the pubs around abouts closing - with housing prices exploding I'm guessing lots of landlords are eyeing up a sale?

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If all the UK's caving organisations, e.g., BCA, BCRA, GPF, pooled their collective resources they could probably afford to pay for it with no borrowing at all and, if managed properly, could probably turn a profit better than the sub 1% they currently make?

Mark

Mark Wright said:

If all the UK's caving organisations, e.g., BCA, BCRA, GPF, pooled their collective resources they could probably afford to pay for it with no borrowing at all and, if managed properly, could probably turn a profit better than the sub 1% they currently make?

Mark

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I'm not sure pooling all the wealth of the UK's national caving bodies into a single pub in a single region (that could potentially run at a loss given it has just shut down anyway) is the best policy

Especially given that cavers probably wouldn't even bother going to that often anyway (given social changes etc. - would you believe that an increasing number of student cavers don't/barely drink!), and *definitely* if expecting to be priced at anything like what cavers expect for accommodation, or relying on famously tight-fisted cavers to spend money...

andrewmc said:

would you believe that an increasing number of student cavers don't/barely drink!.

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Quite a few older ones don't either. The idea of drinking beer, whether after a caving trip or not (to me personally at least), seems like a scene from a 1950s movie, though I wouldn't wish to sugggest others shouldn't, despite recent threads

andrewmc said:

I'm not sure pooling all the wealth of the UK's national caving bodies into a single pub in a single region (that could potentially run at a loss given it has just shut down anyway) is the best policy

Especially given that cavers probably wouldn't even bother going to that often anyway (given social changes etc. - would you believe that an increasing number of student cavers don't/barely drink!), and *definitely* if expecting to be priced at anything like what cavers expect for accommodation, or relying on famously tight-fisted cavers to spend money...

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I'm not sure it would be the best policy either, but it would certainly be worth giving it some serious consideration.

Comparing the UK's current rate of inflation with the current interest rates our investments are making already represents a financial loss to British caving.

I wasn't particularly thinking of the general caving population using a National Caving Centre, whether that be the Hill Inn or any other such location, as an alternative to staying in club huts, though there are plenty of people, myself included, who would be willing to pay the going rate for B&B type accommodation and/or camping.

I can see all sorts of potential benefits of the Hill Inn becoming a National Caving Centre:

1. The perfect location for our annual Hidden Earth Conference and other such potentially profit making caving related events, thus saving the significant costs and headache of having to find and rent a school or other such venue, with no neighbours to annoy.

2. An equally ideal location for the British Caving Library, thus saving the current rental costs of Glutton Bridge (though I'm sure Jenny and Mary might have something to say about it).

3. Secure, regulated accommodation in the heart of the UK's biggest caving region for youngsters who don't have the benefit of having family members who are cavers. This could reduce the significant burdens placed on clubs and their members to accommodate youngsters and take them caving.

4. A central location for outdoor pursuits instructors from all around the country to utilise for the very important activities that encourage youngsters into the sport, which I'm sure the BCA Y&D group could support. This could also include a central equipment store for such activities.

5. Provide employment and accommodation for someone to run the place.

6. Provide valuable income for the local community.

7. Provide a central location for the Northern Section of the CDG to have a compressor and charge for refills?

8. Provide an excellent location for those that do like a pint and an affordable pie and pea supper after a caving trip.

Currently the vast amounts of what is effectively our money is tied up in poorly performing bank and building society accounts and is doing nothing for British caving.

The GPF, with over ?150K sat doing nothing in its various accounts, give less money away to expeditions than they collect from selling raffle tickets and bloody post cards FFS!

It wasn't that long ago that the BCRA came cap in hand to the BCA wanting money because they didn't want to dip into their equally significant reserves.

If I'm not mistaken there is a very large amount of money sat doing nothing that was donated via someones Will to help set up a National Caving Centre.

It's time we got it spent.

Mark

Mark Wright said:

It wasn't that long ago that the BCRA came cap in hand to the BCA wanting money because they didn't want to dip into their equally significant reserves.

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Minor correction: I believe the BCRA both run operationally at a small loss (i.e. their membership income is less than their expenditure on basic operations, administration and publications) AND they give away an amount from their reserves (largely, I think, due to bequests) in grants every year (e.g. the British Cave Science Center, the CSTRF fund, emergency cave conservation fund etc.). So they are spending from a limited pot which will run out one day and they also run at a loss.

Mark Wright said:

1. The perfect location for our annual Hidden Earth Conference and other such potentially profit making caving related events, thus saving the significant costs and headache of having to find and rent a school or other such venue, with no neighbours to annoy.

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Given that the ideal facilities for HE include a large trade hall, three auditoriums (at least one large) with AV facilities, and (if possible) a swimming pool, I'm not sure that a single pub is going to come anywhere near it - and as it's in the middle of a National Park, you aren't going to be able to make any significant alterations/new buiildings... (I slightly wonder if you are joking!)

2. An equally ideal location for the British Caving Library, thus saving the current rental costs of Glutton Bridge (though I'm sure Jenny and Mary might have something to say about it).

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Much as I like this corner of the Dales, it's hardly a good central location for anything.

3. Secure, regulated accommodation in the heart of the UK's biggest caving region for youngsters who don't have the benefit of having family members who are cavers. This could reduce the significant burdens placed on clubs and their members to accommodate youngsters and take them caving.

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I reckon caving huts must already be the cheapest accommodation in the country; often significantly cheaper than camping! You could indeed run excellent youth caving from the centre, but it would come at significant cost - and the building wouldn't really defray these costs since it isn't really required to take kids caving (beyond a gear store).

4. A central location for outdoor pursuits instructors from all around the country to utilise for the very important activities that encourage youngsters into the sport, which I'm sure the BCA Y&D group could support. This could also include a central equipment store for such activities.

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You could get a gear store for much less than ?400,000... and if you want to take people caving, you need vehicles and a gear store but not a pub.

5. Provide employment and accommodation for someone to run the place.

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How would you make the ?30k+ a year you'd need to pay even a single member of staff from cavers?

6. Provide valuable income for the local community.

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Potentially.

7. Provide a central location for the Northern Section of the CDG to have a compressor and charge for refills?

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I could probably do that for a fraction of the ?400,000
Of course, if you had to pay for refills cavers probably wouldn't use it...

8. Provide an excellent location for those that do like a pint and an affordable pie and pea supper after a caving trip.

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This is probably true, although I suspect cavers would still moan about it. If it did Pepsi Max, and halloumi and chips, I might be in...

1. Not joking at all. They may well be the ideal facilities for Hidden Earth in its current format. Change the format. There?s a swimming pool just down the road, albeit a rather murky one.

2. And Glutton Bridge is a good central location? I bet most cavers wouldn?t have the first clue where Glutton Bridge is.

3. My point wasn?t about the cost of accommodation, it was about having somewhere  youngsters could stay during their introduction to caving. Everything comes at a cost.

4. As per 3. above and buy a minibus as well.

5. Employ the right people to run it.

6. Employ the right people to run it.

7. Do cave divers get free compressed air these days?

8. Some people aren?t happy unless they?re moaning about something or other.

If caving bodies are spending more than they?ve got coming in then they either need to spend less or put their membership fees up.

Mark

It still isn't actually for sale (the owners seem to like their location)...

just to add to Marks comments

If we did actually do this (OK it is still not for sales - Yet!) we would probably be able to get grants to assist, so it would not cost that much
With a facility and training we could probably also get help to fund the cost of staff

Just saying if you never dream..............

Yes, can get grants for setting all sorts of things up, more difficult to find funding for running costs.