A Prize for Top Technical Tip

[chunky]

Never ask a caver smaller than you to recommend a cave.

The B***erds will get you stuck every time and eat the cakes they were tempting you through the squeeze with just before you get through!  :spank:

 

[Amy]

When rigging a tensionless, make sure the load is coming off of the appropriate side (top or bottom) so that it does not cross the other wraps. If the other wraps are crossed it puts load on them not only creating rope on rope rub but also making it more difficult to break into should there need to be a rescue. The nature of tension less rig when done properly the tail end with the bight back around the main side should be under zero load. If rescue is needed, you can use the same tree and rig a haul or lower system right next to it, and once safety prussiks set on the main line, the tensionless (as there is no load) can be undone, slowly unwrapped from around the tree, using the friction of the wraps to gently Lower the load into your haul or lower system. Quick and efficient but only able to be done so easily if the tensionless was rigged properly at the start as if the wraps are crossed by the load bearing side it will pinch it off and make this much harder!

I've tried putting this in Google Translate, but it still fails to translate it into a single word I understand.   

I think she's talking about the no-knot knot.

I.e. Wrap rope around tree a few times and clip back. If you wrap it round enough, there's no weight on the actual knot.

Then rescuing from the system with an extra rope.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep. But, it's easy to release no matter which way you wrap, and the "rope on rope friction" that results from doing it the "wrong" way is static and therefore harmless.

It's not easy if it's loaded across the other lines. I've tried it
Here is a tensionless. It can be done without a carabiner too (just make the bight around the rope). Notice the direction of load and the side it is coming off of. The load is downward, so the line is coming off the bottom of the wrap. Particularly on more angled loads, assume it's downwards (the usual direction for cavers ) if the loaded side is crossing the others by coming off the top, it is more difficult to break into should a rescue be needed.

 

[royfellows]

Here's my technical tip. (A considerable part of my background is in chemistry, before people start getting hysterical.....it's fine).

When you wash your ropes, use very little detergent, if any. The key is lots and lots and lots of rinsing. A really good thing is attempting to get as much muck off gently before machine washing. Anyway, the name of the game is conditioning. Ropes turn into sticks if you don't condition them. This is meant to be a good thing, we are meant to use special rope shampoo sold by gucci brands for a fortune. Is this just Sodium Dodecyl Sulphate in a fancy pot? (I expect so). When we have used and washed our ropes a number of times, they take on this stick like appearance, knots become difficult to tie and in the end, they don't like flowing through descenders. THIS IS GOOD BECAUSE YOU MUST ONLY CLEAN YOUR ROPE THIS WAY!!!!

Fabric conditioner is the name of the game and a lot of it. Get the strongest "double concentrate" you can and use a load of it. It makes old ropes like new and keeps ropes supple and user friendly. When you consider the core of the rope, there are tens of thousands of fibres, these need to move over each other and when rope comes from the factory it has residual gunk which gradually washes out. When you add soap, it washes out quicker and in the end, you have a load of fibres which do create a lot of friction when rubbed against each other. The way to coat these fibres, reduce friction and associated wear is to use fabric conditioner. It works a treat and has the added bonus of making the rope nicer to descend as well. "Squeaky clean" is not what we want.

Top Tip:- Wash your ropes with lots of concentrated fabric conditioner.

Where do I collect my prize?

Yes, and it works very well for wetsuits as well. Neoprene does not shrink, it only feels that way.

Hot wash with fabric conditioner and you will be amazed.

 

[Fulk]

royfellows:

Yes, and it works very well for wetsuits as well. Neoprene does not shrink, it only feels that way.

Actually, Roy, I think that  you're wrong. Years ago I bought an end-of-season wetsuit cheap (well, I am a northern caver) that, although it was off the peg, was a perfect fit ? could have been made to measure. Several years later it was too tight for me, and I'd lost about half a stone in weight over those intervening years. So ? I guess the wetsuit must have shrunk.

 

[royfellows]

Nope, its lost its stretch. If you still have it try the hot conditioner wash. I had same issue.

Ill tell you where I got this from, Phil at Caving Supplies

 

[Kenilworth]

When rigging a tensionless, make sure the load is coming off of the appropriate side (top or bottom) so that it does not cross the other wraps. If the other wraps are crossed it puts load on them not only creating rope on rope rub but also making it more difficult to break into should there need to be a rescue. The nature of tension less rig when done properly the tail end with the bight back around the main side should be under zero load. If rescue is needed, you can use the same tree and rig a haul or lower system right next to it, and once safety prussiks set on the main line, the tensionless (as there is no load) can be undone, slowly unwrapped from around the tree, using the friction of the wraps to gently Lower the load into your haul or lower system. Quick and efficient but only able to be done so easily if the tensionless was rigged properly at the start as if the wraps are crossed by the load bearing side it will pinch it off and make this much harder!

I've tried putting this in Google Translate, but it still fails to translate it into a single word I understand.   

I think she's talking about the no-knot knot.

I.e. Wrap rope around tree a few times and clip back. If you wrap it round enough, there's no weight on the actual knot.

Then rescuing from the system with an extra rope.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep. But, it's easy to release no matter which way you wrap, and the "rope on rope friction" that results from doing it the "wrong" way is static and therefore harmless.

It's not easy if it's loaded across the other lines line (it will only squeeze one wrap, if any). I've tried it

As have I, with no issues whatever. You would need an extremely steep angle off the anchor before there is any pinching at all, a "tensionless" wrapped 5' up a tree that sits 1' from the lip, for example. At worst, it's certainly no tougher than unlocking a traditional rack setup (without hyperbars) which is expected to be well within the abilities of the average caver. A rescuer who would be stumped by a little bit of pinched rope would make any victim rightly anxious.

At any rate, it's easier to wrap a tensionless hitch the "right" way than it is the "wrong" way, so while it doesn't much matter, I would guess that 97.811% of riggers orient their rigging as you illustrate.

 

[Disgusted from Cornwall.]

Tensionless = Pointless jerking off and walking around trees IMO.

 

[Kenilworth]

Tensionless = Pointless jerking off and walking around trees IMO.

I've always guessed that the point was to keep one end of the rope at top of the pit when it came time to descend...
As with most everything, there are 700 ways to rig a rope, and most of them are not significantly better or worse than the others.

 

[cap n chris]

800.

 

[paul]

Tensionless = Pointless jerking off and walking around trees IMO.

I've always guessed that the point was to keep one end of the rope at top of the pit when it came time to descend...
As with most everything, there are 700 ways to rig a rope, and most of them are not significantly better or worse than the others.

However, a tensionless hitch does not introduce a knot between the anchor and the load, which therefore retains 100% of its strength...

 

[Kenilworth]

I've always guessed that the point was to keep one end of the rope at top of the pit when it came time to descend...
As with most everything, there are 700 ways to rig a rope, and most of them are not significantly better or worse than the others.

However, a tensionless hitch does not introduce a knot between the anchor and the load, which therefore retains 100% of its strength...

Right. Which might matter if you're rigging a pit with cotton clothesline. Ropes are made to be knotted, are safe when knotted, and do not need to be made "safer" by eliminating a knot. Before I became familiar with the bowline family, I used a tensionless hitch every time I rigged from trees. Not because it was safer, because it was easiest to untie. Significantly better? Not really. And Chris is right. 800. At least.

Since this is the Top Tensionless Tip Thread, here is another:
If you need to save a carabiner, you can tie off the tail as amy mentioned. But if there is a lot of rope at the top of the drop, rethreading a fig. 8 won't do unless you wrap the tree sixty times, so you can tie off the tail with an overhand on a bight around the load rope. This is another legitimate use for a knot that many cavers are taught is a sign of incompetence.

 

[Stu]

Here's my technical tip. (A considerable part of my background is in chemistry, before people start getting hysterical.....it's fine).

When you wash your ropes, use very little detergent, if any. The key is lots and lots and lots of rinsing. A really good thing is attempting to get as much muck off gently before machine washing. Anyway, the name of the game is conditioning. Ropes turn into sticks if you don't condition them. This is meant to be a good thing, we are meant to use special rope shampoo sold by gucci brands for a fortune. Is this just Sodium Dodecyl Sulphate in a fancy pot? (I expect so). When we have used and washed our ropes a number of times, they take on this stick like appearance, knots become difficult to tie and in the end, they don't like flowing through descenders. THIS IS GOOD BECAUSE YOU MUST ONLY CLEAN YOUR ROPE THIS WAY!!!!

Fabric conditioner is the name of the game and a lot of it. Get the strongest "double concentrate" you can and use a load of it. It makes old ropes like new and keeps ropes supple and user friendly. When you consider the core of the rope, there are tens of thousands of fibres, these need to move over each other and when rope comes from the factory it has residual gunk which gradually washes out. When you add soap, it washes out quicker and in the end, you have a load of fibres which do create a lot of friction when rubbed against each other. The way to coat these fibres, reduce friction and associated wear is to use fabric conditioner. It works a treat and has the added bonus of making the rope nicer to descend as well. "Squeaky clean" is not what we want.

Top Tip:- Wash your ropes with lots of concentrated fabric conditioner.

Where do I collect my prize?

http://www.cncc.org.uk/anchors/tg-rope-care.php

You don't! Dave Elliot wrote it up years ago.

Very much worth remembering though.

Actually you can maybe help with a dispute I have with my wife. Fabric conditioner is, I've been informed, hydrophobic (yes?). Which is one reason not to use them on towels - it stops them absorbing water, which is sort of the point of a towel?

 

[Simon Wilson]

Here's my technical tip. (A considerable part of my background is in chemistry, before people start getting hysterical.....it's fine).

When you wash your ropes, use very little detergent, if any. The key is lots and lots and lots of rinsing. A really good thing is attempting to get as much muck off gently before machine washing. Anyway, the name of the game is conditioning. Ropes turn into sticks if you don't condition them. This is meant to be a good thing, we are meant to use special rope shampoo sold by gucci brands for a fortune. Is this just Sodium Dodecyl Sulphate in a fancy pot? (I expect so). When we have used and washed our ropes a number of times, they take on this stick like appearance, knots become difficult to tie and in the end, they don't like flowing through descenders. THIS IS GOOD BECAUSE YOU MUST ONLY CLEAN YOUR ROPE THIS WAY!!!!

Fabric conditioner is the name of the game and a lot of it. Get the strongest "double concentrate" you can and use a load of it. It makes old ropes like new and keeps ropes supple and user friendly. When you consider the core of the rope, there are tens of thousands of fibres, these need to move over each other and when rope comes from the factory it has residual gunk which gradually washes out. When you add soap, it washes out quicker and in the end, you have a load of fibres which do create a lot of friction when rubbed against each other. The way to coat these fibres, reduce friction and associated wear is to use fabric conditioner. It works a treat and has the added bonus of making the rope nicer to descend as well. "Squeaky clean" is not what we want.

Top Tip:- Wash your ropes with lots of concentrated fabric conditioner.

Where do I collect my prize?

http://www.cncc.org.uk/anchors/tg-rope-care.php

You don't! Dave Elliot wrote it up years ago.

Very much worth remembering though.

Actually you can maybe help with a dispute I have with my wife. Fabric conditioner is, I've been informed, hydrophobic (yes?). Which is one reason not to use them on towels - it stops them absorbing water, which is sort of the point of a towel?

If you really can't agree - buy her some nice new towels. When you wash towels wash hers as she likes them and wash yours how you like them.

 

[JasonC]

If you really can't agree - buy her some nice new towels. When you wash towels wash hers as she likes them and wash yours how you like them.

Perhaps we need a new Prize for Top Marital Harmony Tips ?  This would be a strong contender ....

 

[paul]

I've always guessed that the point was to keep one end of the rope at top of the pit when it came time to descend...
As with most everything, there are 700 ways to rig a rope, and most of them are not significantly better or worse than the others.

However, a tensionless hitch does not introduce a knot between the anchor and the load, which therefore retains 100% of its strength...

Right. Which might matter if you're rigging a pit with cotton clothesline. Ropes are made to be knotted, are safe when knotted, and do not need to be made "safer" by eliminating a knot. Before I became familiar with the bowline family, I used a tensionless hitch every time I rigged from trees. Not because it was safer, because it was easiest to untie. Significantly better? Not really. And Chris is right. 800. At least.

Indeed, ropes are often knotted, and if you are simply tying the average climbing rope or SRT rope to an anchor to abseil down a pitch and climb back up again, then the reduction in strength due to the knot (or which knot you choose) probably won't matter too much, as you say.

However, there are many other reasons for tying a rope to an anchor. And in some cases you want to preserve as much strength in the rope as possible. For example in some rescue situations where you may be hauling an abnormally heavy load or arranging a Tyrollean Traverse.

 

[Fulk]

paul:

you may be hauling an abnormally heavy load

Errrr . . . . if you're hauling 'an abnormally heavy load' (or even a standard average one) would you not have to tie a knot anyway, to connect the rope to the stretcher?

The thing is, if a knot reduces the 'breaking load' of your rope by, say 20%, so what? In all probability it's still way above the load that's likely to be put on it in any realistic situation.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Is the rope touching the floor?

               

This is two pieces cut off a retroreflective number plate, tied together back to back and attached to the rope with 2mm cord. When it's suspended you can't see it from above but as soon as it touches you can see it from a very long distance.

 

[cap n chris]

I like the idea! - but would a slight tweak improve on it, I wonder? Using high-vis reflective tape to end-wrap (and then shrink-wrapped afterwards) the rope might produce the same effect but without the risk of snagging?

 

[Simon Wilson]

I like the idea! - but would a slight tweak improve on it, I wonder? Using high-vis reflective tape to end-wrap (and then shrink-wrapped afterwards) the rope might produce the same effect but without the risk of snagging?

But you can attach this to any rope as required and see it at very great distance.

 

[cap n chris]

Clever boy