Access, CRoW and the BCA

[Ed W]

In a slight change of tack, instead of hammering the same old arguments, is it time for all of us to start doing something practical about this issue?  Whether we are pro or anti caving becoming covered by CROW, the issues will be largely out of our hands once lawyers get involved.  Given this scenario, I think that we as cavers need to be in a position to influence which caves on CROW land need to be protected and how.  I would have thought that the safest thing would be to approach Natural England and discuss this list with them, ideally before any changes to the status quo, so that any access restrictions under Section 26 can be ready to be applied prior to any access free for all.

I would have thought that the Regional Councils would be the best places to thrash this out, and even if you don't have a vote you could still turn up and add your 2p to the debate.  This process may also help a wider body of people to understand why access is restricted to certain caves and perhaps ease some of the currently expressed feelings about empire building.

 

[Ian Adams]

The problem with that Ed (as well meaning as I know you intend it to be) is that a lot of people are entrenched (as has already been pointed out). I guess I am one of them. I will say that I will listen to reasoned argument but it cannot be denied there has been a tremendous amount of pollution.

Additionally, NE (and NRW in Wales) have a primary role of conservation and this conflicts with open access ? their ?opinions? will not be supported by some of the open access proponents and arguments will ensue as to what is or is not worthy of ?conservation?.

I can give plenty of examples where a club has persuaded the CCW (the former name for NRW) that a cave should be SSSI so that the same club can have access to ?better caves? in the same rock formation further long ( and, actually, I have previously done so and named them). These caves which the club has, are also locked but nothing to do with conservation and they shout ?landowner wishes? (which is also not true and I can amply demonstrate that too).

I seriously doubt that these examples I can give are the only ones in the country and I am certain (well I know) others have similar experiences and problems.

CRoW goes a little way to breaking down that kind of dictatorship that is, in my book, so very wrong.

With regards to regional councils and the BCA ? well, look at what has happened so far .. it?s been farcical at best hasn?t it ?

Personally, I resent the insinuation that, were a cave to be open, ?I? (or other cavers) would trash it, disrespect it or fail to act properly to ?conserve it?. I also don?t believe that opening caves on Access land will make any difference to the current ?state of play? with regards to cave visitations and ?traffic?.

The single most damaging aspect to the caving environment (conservation) is likely to be the seemingly new influx of commercial cavers taking in numbers of visitors with little or no experience (to which I have absolutely no objection). No matter how many times you tell a ?newbie? not to touch something, they often still will (I have seen them do it and I am sure we all have) ? it?s human nature.

Ian

 

[Badlad]

I always wonder just who these gated caves are meant to keep out.  There must be cavers who are hooligans and cavers who are saints.  Those who control access to these gated caves must keep the former out.

Erm, children, pets, etc? Most of the caves in my area of the Peak are gated by either DCA/me or the NT for legal reasons. Access is open, you just need a 'Derbyshire Key'. (Ie:- Adjustable spanner.) But the risk of legal procedures if someone has an accident, gets lost, etc. requires a 'display of appropriate actions to ensure members of the public aren't put at risk'. Then if they still decide to go into the caves, they have taken responsibility for their actions...

Sorry, I thought it was clear that I was talking about a locked gate controlled by a club or group.  St Cuthbert's and Upper Flood were the two examples being discussed which prompted my post.  I have recently enjoyed access to Peak district caves which have a Derbyshire key.  I fully support that system because it is open to all cavers and not controlled by a small group.

 

[Bottlebank]

Personally, I resent the insinuation that, were a cave to be open, ?I? (or other cavers) would trash it, disrespect it or fail to act properly to ?conserve it?. I also don?t believe that opening caves on Access land will make any difference to the current ?state of play? with regards to cave visitations and ?traffic?.

The single most damaging aspect to the caving environment (conservation) is likely to be the seemingly new influx of commercial cavers taking in numbers of visitors with little or no experience (to which I have absolutely no objection). No matter how many times you tell a ?newbie? not to touch something, they often still will (I have seen them do it and I am sure we all have) ? it?s human nature.

Ian

No need for you to take it personally but unfortunately Ian in the hundred plus years since Martel dropped into Gaping Gill all the evidence is that you are wrong. Commercial groups tend to stick to a few well trodden routes, where not much more damage can be done. Yes, new cavers will touch things but it's cavers themselves who have done most damage over the years.

I like to think most damage has been accidental rather than deliberate but no one knows.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I always wonder just who these gated caves are meant to keep out.  There must be cavers who are hooligans and cavers who are saints.  Those who control access to these gated caves must keep the former out.

Erm, children, pets, etc? Most of the caves in my area of the Peak are gated by either DCA/me or the NT for legal reasons. Access is open, you just need a 'Derbyshire Key'. (Ie:- Adjustable spanner.) But the risk of legal procedures if someone has an accident, gets lost, etc. requires a 'display of appropriate actions to ensure members of the public aren't put at risk'. Then if they still decide to go into the caves, they have taken responsibility for their actions...

Sorry, I thought it was clear that I was talking about a locked gate controlled by a club or group.  St Cuthbert's and Upper Flood were the two examples being discussed which prompted my post.  I have recently enjoyed access to Peak district caves which have a Derbyshire key.  I fully support that system because it is open to all cavers and not controlled by a small group.

The comparison you make is not quite so simple unless the Peak district system you visited had a leader scheme in place.

 

[graham]

No need for you to take it personally but unfortunately Ian in the hundred plus years since Martel dropped into Gaping Gill all the evidence is that you are wrong. Commercial groups tend to stick to a few well trodden routes, where not much more damage can be done. Yes, new cavers will touch things but it's cavers themselves who have done most damage over the years.

I like to think most damage has been accidental rather than deliberate but no one knows.

IIRC it was the late Bob Leakey who maintained that the best way to preserve our best caves would be to turn them into show caves. I'm not saying I agree with him, there are pros and cons and all developments of that nature should be assessed on a case by case basis in my opinion, but it does demonstrate that these debates have been going on a very long time and all that time caves have still been accruing damage.

 

[Badlad]

I always wonder just who these gated caves are meant to keep out.  There must be cavers who are hooligans and cavers who are saints.  Those who control access to these gated caves must keep the former out.

St Cuthbert's has been mentioned numerous times on this thread as an example of 'good gate keeping' conservation.  I certainly remember staying with the club who controls access to this cave and watching them kitting up at midnight, after a skinfull down the Hunters, for a drunken trip down said cave.  In case I had imagined this act of conservation I spoke with a friend who was a member of this club for over ten years.  He confirmed that it was common practice to go down St Cuthbert's after a night's drinking in the Hunters.  I can't understand how this sort of access control has anything to do with conserving the cave.  I think it would help this thread if we were all a little bit more honest with ourselves.

I found this quote attributed to D. Irwin on the web:
"Due to a still enforceable court injunction dating from 1863, which required that the stream now known to run through the cave to Wookey Hole was not polluted, the cave is locked and access is controlled by the Bristol Exploration Club on behalf of the landowners. No novices are allowed to enter."

It would appear that the requirement for a locked gate was due to concerns over pollution and not for conservation reasons.  It reminded me of all the damming, pumping and digging work that has gone on over the decades in attempts made to pass sump 2.  Surely those activities would have been far more likely to pollute the stream than any casual visitor could have.

My point is that activities such as drunken late night trips and sump pumping by the controlling club do not support the claims that the locked gate is there for the benefit of the cave.  It seems to be there for the benefit of the controlling club and their associates.  I am not convinced that a 'Derbyshire Key' arrangement and a voluntary ban on novices and commercial groups would be any less effective in conserving the cave.

 

[bograt]

A few points to ponder:

The Derbyshire Key was conceived as a remedy to the perenial problem where a land owner/ manager insisted upon a gate or lid to a cave entrance on the grounds of public protection/ reduction of liability, it was thought that a bolted gate would discourage non-caving casual visitors from entering systems, ramblers and other countryside visitors rarely carry a large adjustable spanner, whereas ligitimate cave explorers in the area now know that one is required.

For the purposes of this debate, using CRoW regulation for gain IS NOT allowed, hence commercial caving trips are out of consideration on this thread.

I am of the opinion that the leader system is the only defense against a detemined stal collector/ sediment stamper.

 

[martinm]

In a slight change of tack, instead of hammering the same old arguments, is it time for all of us to start doing something practical about this issue?  Whether we are pro or anti caving becoming covered by CROW, the issues will be largely out of our hands once lawyers get involved.  Given this scenario, I think that we as cavers need to be in a position to influence which caves on CROW land need to be protected and how.  I would have thought that the safest thing would be to approach Natural England and discuss this list with them, ideally before any changes to the status quo, so that any access restrictions under Section 26 can be ready to be applied prior to any access free for all.

I would have thought that the Regional Councils would be the best places to thrash this out, and even if you don't have a vote you could still turn up and add your 2p to the debate.  This process may also help a wider body of people to understand why access is restricted to certain caves and perhaps ease some of the currently expressed feelings about empire building.

This is the reason for creation of the BCA CRoW Working Group! We are working on it  and will let you know of the results in a few months. Now just let us get on with the work  and stop going round in circles on here. I agree with the suggestions to lock this thread until we have the QCs opinion, and additionally until we have held the meeting in mid-August and reported back...

 

[Peter Burgess]

And should all other CRoW threads be locked as well? Both existing ones and any new ones that might be created?

 

[martinm]

And should all other CRoW threads be locked as well? Both existing ones and any new ones that might be created?

IMHO Peter, yes. There's no point in them. Let's just get Dinahs opinion have the BCA C&A CRoW meeting and then we can report back to everyone and then discuss the implications, etc. Like I've said b4 this doesn't have to impact on anybody or any access agreements unless those people involved choose to do so. I have been in contact with various members of BCA and we will communicate results when we  have them. Then it will be up to the regional councils to deal with those as appropriate for their region.

We are all working for the interest of all cavers. I won't be on here again until Monday cos I'm off up the Peak tmrw doing conservation work / caving. I'd just say to everyone, let it be for now, then when we have more info, we will be able to have a more informed discussion on these matters...

 

[Peter Burgess]

Is there any other topic we shouldn't mention on UKCaving? I find this extraordinary.

 

[graham]

Like I've said b4 this doesn't have to impact on anybody or any access agreements unless those people involved choose to do so.

Mel, unless you can justify this statement with concrete facts, hopefully about what procedures are required then I think you need to be careful what you are promising people.

 

[bograt]

I think this thread should carry on, just so that the rest of us can observe the twats comments so that we can identify them and ignore them when clarification finally comes and progress decisions need to be made.

 

[bograt]

YE GODS, not a reply within the hour, at least someone is thinking right on this thread, just remember, your thoughts / posts  will come back and haunt you.!!

 

[NigR]

Graham: a question. (Apologies if this has already been answered, but it is, as you point out, a long thread.) So far as you know, which important Mendip caves are on Crow land? And if anyone happens to know, which important North and South Wales ones? (I'm defining important here as the sort of cave someone might travel to visit on a weekend - eg, Pant Mawr or Longwood Swallet, but not small grots not really worthy of a trip in themselves.)

David,

Here is one South Wales cave for you:

Drws Cefn

(Although I am pretty certain you are already aware of this.)

 

[martinm]

Like I've said b4 this doesn't have to impact on anybody or any access agreements unless those people involved choose to do so.

Mel, unless you can justify this statement with concrete facts, hopefully about what procedures are required then I think you need to be careful what you are promising people.

OK, I'm back on here cos I'm home early from watching a band...

Unless you go waving stuff around about any new CRoW info and trying to enforce some new right of access, then nothing will change! We already have access agreements in place. Most of us are happy with most of them. Why would most of us upset landowners/tenants with this stuff even if Dinah does say CRoW allows caving? Even now the act doesn't specifically exclude it. As Jenny P has pointed out, it allows climbing, but not rock climbing!  Doesn't mention caving, just open air recreation.

Whatever is the outcome of this clarification process it will not change anything, unless some people then try and use it to do so. I have been told by someone in BCA that this is their worry and I can quite understand that.

But equally I think that the large estates, landowners, etc. will want to deal with established regional bodies that they are familiar with and that are officially recognised by BCA. So that would mean CNCC, DCA, CSCC, CCC and others.

In the Peak there are a lot of sites on  National Trust land. We have a very good relationship with them and they already allow free access to most caves, except in exceptional circumstances (like Odin Mine for example or Windy Knoll Cave, for safety reasons.) There is absolutely no reason to use any new CRoW info to try and force free access onto them.)

Let's just wait for the clarification process to complete and then we can all discuss the matter better informed. Is that to much to ask? I say this because this thread is achieving nothing atm, a bit like the CNCC threads of a few months ago. 

 

[NigR]

It is a great shame that a few of our own caving colleagues are fighting so hard against the advent of CRoW. Why not just concrete all the entrances to prevent people going in altogether to ?conserve? the cave ?  Think that?s stupid?  There is one club in the process of doing that right now ?..

Awesome huh ?

Ian

*Edit ... and that cave is on CRoW land

The cave mentioned above is, of course, Drws Cefn.

The club with the penchant for concrete is, of course, Oxford University Caving Club (although they are doing this under the guise of the PDCMG).

Whatever is the outcome of this clarification process it will not change anything, unless some people then try and use it to do so. I have been told by someone in BCA that this is their worry and I can quite understand that.

Sorry, Mel.

Sorry, BCA.

Your worst nightmares may soon become a harsh reality.

 

[Rhys]

I'm reading between the lines, but I think what Nigr is saying is that he and his chums will take a positive response from the QC as carte blanche to cut off locks and do as they wish on CROW land - before any official guidance comes in to place.

Rhys

 

[Peter Burgess]

Of course, another possible outcome is that anyone seeking caves on CRoW land may well simply try to do everything - digging, disguising, exploring and (not) publishing, in the manner of Black Ops, so potentially very significant cave systems remain known only to a tiny handful of cavers. It may be the only way in their view to keep the place from being ruined. I know this kind of activity has been going on for decades to a limited extent, but only through what one or two particular individuals have told me. We could expect more of that kind of thing.