Access, CRoW and the BCA

[martinm]

Drws Cefn is currently open. It is not locked, it is not gated. It has been this way for the last four years. However, plans are well advanced for the entrance to be permanently sealed and this was emphasised at last week's PDCMG Meeting.

In order to prevent this from happening (and, hopefully, to secure future access to the cave) we are fully prepared to use the CRoW Act to our advantage if possible (with all the legal ramifications this implies).

Is that any clearer for you, Rhys (or would you still prefer to "read between the lines")?

Again, apologies to Mel, the BCA and anyone else (particularly in other areas) who may be affected as a result. I fully appreciate why you might prefer us not to go down this route but, as things stand, we are being left with no other alternative.

Thanx, but can you tell me more about Drws Cefn? I'm not that familar with the Welsh caves, I've only been down a couple. Is it another entrance to  Ogof Draenen? Is it in a SSSI? (In which case concreting it shut would possibly be a PDO and wouldn't need CRoW legislation to prevent its closure.) PM me if preferred.

TIA.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Don't make the mistake of believing that what you read on here constitutes the totality of what concerns British cavers when it comes to at risk sites and landowner relations.

.................... Also, I do not think we have seen anything from actual officers of CNCC, either.

I'll point you to the minutes of the May committee meeting and the unanimous vote of the CNCC committee with not a single abstention. You can read who voted and who are "actual officers".
http://www.cncc.org.uk/documents/committee_meeting_31st_may_minutes_1.pdf

 

[Simon Wilson]

Drws Cefn is currently open. It is not locked, it is not gated. It has been this way for the last four years. However, plans are well advanced for the entrance to be permanently sealed and this was emphasised at last week's PDCMG Meeting.

In order to prevent this from happening (and, hopefully, to secure future access to the cave) we are fully prepared to use the CRoW Act to our advantage if possible (with all the legal ramifications this implies).

Is that any clearer for you, Rhys (or would you still prefer to "read between the lines")?

Again, apologies to Mel, the BCA and anyone else (particularly in other areas) who may be affected as a result. I fully appreciate why you might prefer us not to go down this route but, as things stand, we are being left with no other alternative.

Thanx, but can you tell me more about Drws Cefn? I'm not that familar with the Welsh caves, I've only been down a couple. Is it another entrance to  Ogof Draenen? Is it in a SSSI? (In which case concreting it shut would possibly be a PDO and wouldn't need CRoW legislation to prevent its closure.) PM me if preferred.

TIA.

Please don't do that by PM; let's see it out in the open.

 

[droid]

Do you have any examples to demonstrate that Graham is wrong? I note you give no specifics at all. This means to me that your comments are simply opinion, laced with a bit of unnecessary condescension. For example, please name an uncontrolled cave where nothing other than publicity and education has allowed the cave to remain in a largely unspoilt condition for more than. let's say. 10 years? Can you? By doing so you might persuade us that your much trumped education-based methods have a proven track record, and we just might take your comments more seriously. Try to surprise us. And you don't need to keep banging on about micro-managers and megalomaniacs - they are about as real as trolls under bridges and goblins in the garden.

Possibly the biggest load of twaddle to be posted on this website.

From that I gather you can't give any examples.

And you wish to be taken seriously? 

 

[Peter Burgess]

Quite, Droid. Quite. And I thought I was being fairly restrained in my questions.

 

[cavemanmike]

i would have thought concreting  a natural entrance would be considered criminal damage , or contamination of the immediate local area 

 

[Ian Adams]

Do you have any examples to demonstrate that Graham is wrong? I note you give no specifics at all. This means to me that your comments are simply opinion, laced with a bit of unnecessary condescension. For example, please name an uncontrolled cave where nothing other than publicity and education has allowed the cave to remain in a largely unspoilt condition for more than. let's say. 10 years? Can you? By doing so you might persuade us that your much trumped education-based methods have a proven track record, and we just might take your comments more seriously. Try to surprise us. And you don't need to keep banging on about micro-managers and megalomaniacs - they are about as real as trolls under bridges and goblins in the garden.

Possibly the biggest load of twaddle to be posted on this website.

From that I gather you can't give any examples.

And you wish to be taken seriously? 

Had you bothered to pay more attention you would haved noted;

No matter what answer is given (as has occurred many times in this thread already) you (or one of your compatriots) will find an issue with the answer and press harder and harder until the actual question has been lost in a bog of eternal stench.

You would also have noted;

Pasture Gill Pot, remarkably pristine. Though I can't know if education is the cause, the cave has no access agreement except to knock on the door at the farm (I don't count those) and is relatively easy. No gate, no permit.

It's one of the most remarkable caves I have seen in the Dales, calcited tree roots, not seen that anywhere else.

You would then have noticed Graham escalating and Alex justifying precisely as I said here;

No matter what answer is given (as has occurred many times in this thread already) you (or one of your compatriots) will find an issue with the answer and press harder and harder until the actual question has been lost in a bog of eternal stench.

It has been shown to be the case over and over throughout this thread that some people are nothing more than provocateurs and I see no value in attempting to answer a question guised under ?reasonable debate? when the person asking the question has no interest other than to further obfuscate and/or belittle the person answering.

i would have thought concreting  a natural entrance would be considered criminal damage , or contamination of the immediate local area

I can only believe that the club in question has the landowners consent and any other necessary permissions. Nevertheless, it is the most stupidest of acts that I could possibly imagine in the world of caving.

Ian

 

[graham]

Nevertheless, it is the most stupidest of acts that I could possibly imagine in the world of caving.

More stupid than threatening a landowner?

More stupid than ripping off a gate on a new find, that was then wholly shut?

Both of those things have happened in S. Wales in recent times.

 

[braveduck]

No provenance as usual ,Graham .

 

[Peter Burgess]

Yes, Rhys. You are quite right.

 

[Peter Burgess]

No provenance as usual ,Graham .

The second was a briefly accessible cave near Ystradfellte, I believe. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

 

[graham]

No provenance as usual ,Graham .

No? Well for one this isn't a court of law, for another one of those events was fully documented on here, or in Descent, 'cos that's how I heard about it and for a third, I don't really want to name villains and have my nearest and dearest threatened.

If anybody tells you that the latter won't happen then they presumably know who the perpetrators are. Or how else could they know?

 

[braveduck]

Graham, you really are entering the realms fantasy now. Time to pack it in .

 

[Andy Farrant]

Few points of clarification.
Yes Drws Cefn is one of several entrances to Ogof Draenen - there are many other points in the cave very close to the surface. It was dug open many years ago by myself and other Chelsea members - the late 1990's if memory serves me correct - prior to the current landowner buying the land. The cave has been open most if not all of that time. It was connected to Draenen a few years ago by other cavers.  It is not a SSSI - Siambru Ddu is, but Draenen is not (yet) scheduled, but it is written up in the Geological Conservation Review (Waltham et al 1997- Karst and Caves of Great Britain).

Not everyone on the PDCMG is in favour of blocking Drws Cefn. As a member of PDCMG, my own view is that the entrance should not be blocked but gated with a suitable lock - ideally something like the Derbyshire key to make it easily accessible to cavers but not passers by (it's within view of a footpath). That is what we should be advocating to the landowner. I really don't think any cave management group including the PDCMG should sanction permanantly blocking any entrance, especially one that has been open for many years and contains a significant amount of passage. Given the amount of caver traffic down Draenen, and the fact that Drws Cefn-Draenen connection has been open for several years, I don't think keeping it open with a suitable gate will negatively impact on the cave (some people's experience of the cave as a 'wilderness' may change though). However, people removing gates and locks is stupid and counterproductive - it makes it far harder to argue the case for easing access restrictions or creating multiple entrances, and does nothing for landowner relations to the extent that its probably now too late to get the landowner to agree to keeping Drws Cefn open. But this has all been aired before elsewhere on this forum.

I'm ambivalent re CROW. However, irrespective of right to roam/landowners, it ought be the nature of the cave that determines the type of access be it a leader scheme/gate with unique key/gate with combination lock/ gate with generic key/open access etc. I think most cavers would agree with that - although most cavers no longer read this forum..! That said, we should be encouraging caving as a sport/science, and if CROW helps make access easier, that may be a good thing. Perhaps a compromise would be a generic Derbyshire-type key for any gated/vulnerable caves on CROW land?

Lastly, I suspect most PDCMG members don't contribute to this forum because of the bile and insults that get bandied around. Most people have got better things to do with their time than spend all day responding to all the ranting on UK caving...
Andy

 

[graham]

Fair post Andy, it's just that:

However, irrespective of right to roam/landowners, it ought be the nature of the cave that determines the type of access be it a leader scheme/gate with unique key/gate with combination lock/ gate with generic key/open access etc.

The law is not quite as nuanced as cavers might like it to be.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Drws Cefn is currently open. It is not locked, it is not gated. It has been this way for the last four years. However, plans are well advanced for the entrance to be permanently sealed and this was emphasised at last week's PDCMG Meeting.

In order to prevent this from happening (and, hopefully, to secure future access to the cave) we are fully prepared to use the CRoW Act to our advantage if possible (with all the legal ramifications this implies).

Is that any clearer for you, Rhys (or would you still prefer to "read between the lines")?

Again, apologies to Mel, the BCA and anyone else (particularly in other areas) who may be affected as a result. I fully appreciate why you might prefer us not to go down this route but, as things stand, we are being left with no other alternative.

Thanx, but can you tell me more about Drws Cefn? I'm not that familar with the Welsh caves, I've only been down a couple. Is it another entrance to  Ogof Draenen? Is it in a SSSI? (In which case concreting it shut would possibly be a PDO and wouldn't need CRoW legislation to prevent its closure.) PM me if preferred.

TIA.

You can find some information in these minutes, section 5d from the late Elsie Little, on conservation/access issues for Ogof Capel, Ogof Draenen, and the referred to cave at Ystradfellte.

http://cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/pdf/meeting_minutes/2011/AnnualGeneralMeetingMinutesMar2011.pdf

 

[martinm]

Thanx all. (Esp. that post of Andy's, a Derbyshire Key solution would seem ideal), I now have some very useful info/links on the Drws Cefn matter. I'll have a read through all that over the next few days. Not that Wales is my area, but it will help me and BCA to better understand the issues before our meeting in August. 

 

[Simon Wilson]

Drws Cefn is currently open. It is not locked, it is not gated. It has been this way for the last four years. However, plans are well advanced for the entrance to be permanently sealed and this was emphasised at last week's PDCMG Meeting.

In order to prevent this from happening (and, hopefully, to secure future access to the cave) we are fully prepared to use the CRoW Act to our advantage if possible (with all the legal ramifications this implies).

Is that any clearer for you, Rhys (or would you still prefer to "read between the lines")?

Again, apologies to Mel, the BCA and anyone else (particularly in other areas) who may be affected as a result. I fully appreciate why you might prefer us not to go down this route but, as things stand, we are being left with no other alternative.

Thanx, but can you tell me more about Drws Cefn? I'm not that familar with the Welsh caves, I've only been down a couple. Is it another entrance to  Ogof Draenen? Is it in a SSSI? (In which case concreting it shut would possibly be a PDO and wouldn't need CRoW legislation to prevent its closure.) PM me if preferred.

TIA.

You can find some information in these minutes, section 5d from the late Elsie Little, on conservation/access issues for Ogof Capel, Ogof Draenen, and the referred to cave at Ystradfellte.

http://cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/pdf/meeting_minutes/2011/AnnualGeneralMeetingMinutesMar2011.pdf

There's no mention of concrete. Tell us about the concrete.

 

[NigR]

Few points of clarification.
Yes Drws Cefn is one of several entrances to Ogof Draenen - there are many other points in the cave very close to the surface. It was dug open many years ago by myself and other Chelsea members - the late 1990's if memory serves me correct - prior to the current landowner buying the land. The cave has been open most if not all of that time. It was connected to Draenen a few years ago by other cavers.  It is not a SSSI - Siambru Ddu is, but Draenen is not (yet) scheduled, but it is written up in the Geological Conservation Review (Waltham et al 1997- Karst and Caves of Great Britain).

Not everyone on the PDCMG is in favour of blocking Drws Cefn. As a member of PDCMG, my own view is that the entrance should not be blocked but gated with a suitable lock - ideally something
like the Derbyshire key to make it easily accessible to cavers but not passers by (it's within view of a footpath). That is what we should be advocating to the landowner. I really don't think any cave management group including the PDCMG should sanction permanantly blocking any entrance, especially one that has been open for many years and contains a significant amount of passage. Given the amount of caver traffic down Draenen, and the fact that Drws Cefn-Draenen connection has been open for several years, I don't think keeping it open with a suitable gate will negatively impact on the cave (some people's experience of the cave as a 'wilderness' may change though). However, people removing gates and locks is stupid and counterproductive - it makes it far harder to argue the case for easing access restrictions or creating multiple entrances, and does nothing for landowner relations to the extent that its probably now too late to get the landowner to agree to keeping Drws Cefn open. But this has all been aired before elsewhere on this forum.

I'm ambivalent re CROW. However, irrespective of right to roam/landowners, it ought be the nature of the cave that determines the type of access be it a leader scheme/gate with unique key/gate with combination lock/ gate with generic key/open access etc. I think most cavers would agree with that - although most cavers no longer read this forum..! That said, we should be encouraging caving as a sport/science, and if CROW helps make access easier, that may be a good thing. Perhaps a compromise would be a generic Derbyshire-type key for any gated/vulnerable caves on CROW land?

Thanks for the input, Andy.

Thanks also for answering Mel's questions regarding Drws Cefn.

Just a few factual clarifications to your points of clarification:

Drws Cefn is the third (publicised) entrance to Ogof Draenen. (The second entrance, also originally dug by CSS, was concreted by the PDCMG in 1999).

It was initially extended early in 2009, then connected to the main system later the same year by members of GOG.

The cave was gated by GOG, with the assistance of Cambrian Caving Council, and it remained this way for approximately 8 months (until July 2010).

The entrance has indeed been open ever since.

It is a pity that you were unable to be present at last week's PDCMG meeting, Andy. Your views would have been much appreciated, particularly if they had mirrored what you have written here. Only two of the six clubs present spoke up against the proposed permanent sealing of the cave, these being CSS and Gagendor. As usual, those clubs totally in favour of the current course of action were OUCC, UBSS and Morgannwg Caving Club. Only the SWCC rep attempted to tread any form of middle ground (SWCC also abstained when the initial vote to concrete the entrance was taken several years ago).

Your ideas regarding the potential gating of the cave (and for caves on CRoW land in general) make for interesting reading. As you might imagine, on a personal level I would be (for the most part) opposed to this. In the case of Drws Cefn, there is simply no need, either on conservation grounds or those of public safety (non cavers would not go far in there). Having said that, it is worth bearing in mind that (as previously stated) we did in fact originally gate it ourselves in search of a compromise. Hence it is not inconceivable that sufficient support for such a solution could be garnered, particularly if the lock merely required the use of a "Derbyshire" key as you suggest. However, the current immovable stance of the PDCMG, allied with their strict adherence to a ridiculous "single entrance policy", makes such an outcome virtually impossible to attain.

 

[blackholesun]

Sigh. I would be extremely surprised if consensus (or even any informed opinions) on whether Drws Cefn should be permanently blocked, was attained from those in UBSS who actually attend Bristol University, and yet statements and decisions like these are being made partly in their name.