Peter Burgess
New member
Chris
you said:
I wrote:
So I agree with you.
you said:
regarding carbide,
I wrote:
So I agree with you.
Carbide
- Thread starter cap n chris
- Start date
gus horsley
New member
I used to be a carbide user. I would furtively creep off and find a remote place where I could inhale the fumes in peace. After suffering several mishaps, including a partially-fragmented helmet when my jet got blocked, I realised that the seriously addicted acetyholic was on a one-way trip to oblivion. Eventually I had to turn to a dodgy Oldham with a burnt-out secondary bulb but it was never the same. Sometimes, if I get the old cravings, I make do with eating a candle. But it never really leaves the system and on rare occasions I still get flashbacks.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Welcome to the Carbide Users' website.
Currently under construction, the CU website will hold details about carbide and its use throughout the years.
The purpose of this site is:
1) To provide details of carbide and its uses.
2) To provide an accurate record of the uses of carbide.
3) Provide easy reference to public data about carbide and the various uses to which it may be put.
4) Provide details of all carbide lamps that have already been manufactured. This is to include names of manufacturers, and persons involved, with references to the original documents detailing designs.
5) Provide a contact email address so that contact can be made with other carbide junkies without the need to go through any clubs or societies.
6) Provide other carbide users with an insight to problems that arise when people use newer technology like LEDS, light bulbs, multiple mirror arrays or magnesium strips.
Please make your choice from the links below
CARBIDE / USES / 1702-PRESENT / CONTACT
Currently under construction, the CU website will hold details about carbide and its use throughout the years.
The purpose of this site is:
1) To provide details of carbide and its uses.
2) To provide an accurate record of the uses of carbide.
3) Provide easy reference to public data about carbide and the various uses to which it may be put.
4) Provide details of all carbide lamps that have already been manufactured. This is to include names of manufacturers, and persons involved, with references to the original documents detailing designs.
5) Provide a contact email address so that contact can be made with other carbide junkies without the need to go through any clubs or societies.
6) Provide other carbide users with an insight to problems that arise when people use newer technology like LEDS, light bulbs, multiple mirror arrays or magnesium strips.
Please make your choice from the links below
CARBIDE / USES / 1702-PRESENT / CONTACT
gus horsley
New member
Chris
Thanks ever so much. I used to think I was alone, but now that I know there are other sufferers out there it's given new meaning to my life. I'm going to find somewhere quiet to cry/sleep/moan incessantly/inhale carbide fumes...delete the last.
Thanks ever so much. I used to think I was alone, but now that I know there are other sufferers out there it's given new meaning to my life. I'm going to find somewhere quiet to cry/sleep/moan incessantly/inhale carbide fumes...delete the last.
Peter Burgess
New member
Perhaps to preserve a fondly-remembered way of caving, we should set aside one cave that may only be explored with carbide lamps. It would be like a heritage site, where we could re-enact early cave exploration, and pehaps have a public viewing area. Like Big Pit, we could employ old gits to demonstrate the art of carbide caving. All visitors would be searched on arrival for dangerous items, like spare batteries or bulbs.
Which cave do you think would be most suitable?
Which cave do you think would be most suitable?
gus horsley
New member
How about Cox's Cave? Can I get a job there? Do I get to wear an old holey boiler suit with scraggly bits of frayed jumper and orange-stained y-fronts poking through? If not, then I'm not interested.
Peter Burgess
New member
Only if you've got a beard at least three inches long.
T
tubby two
Guest
Ha ha, this is becoming like a 'carbide users anonymous' on here!
And chris,
.. that would be brilliant, I'm just trying to think of a suitable cave, like runscar of somewhere. Although you might need to make some of the mirrors rough to scatter the light and illuminate the walls or you'd just shine a beam of light in one end and out the other!
Seriously though, if anyone manages this- pleeease invite me round!
tt.
And chris,
.. that would be brilliant, I'm just trying to think of a suitable cave, like runscar of somewhere. Although you might need to make some of the mirrors rough to scatter the light and illuminate the walls or you'd just shine a beam of light in one end and out the other!
Seriously though, if anyone manages this- pleeease invite me round!
tt.
Peter Burgess
New member
Two Novel Designs for Carbide Lamps - from an article written 20 years ago 
PLEASE this is not serious!!!!
with Benefits for Cave Conservation
Carbide lamps operate by producing flammable acetylene gas from the reaction between calcium carbide and water, calcium oxide (lime) also being generated:-
CaC2 + H2O = C2H2 + CaO
There is an instantaneous further reaction of the calcium oxide produced with more water to produce what is often called slaked lime:-
CaO + H2O = Ca(OH)2
The acetylene gas burns in air with a hot yellow flame; inclusion in the gas of oxygen before the jet results in better combustion and a much less luminous light blue flame. This is of no use to the caver, but is of use to welders as we have just reinvented the oxy-acetylene blowtorch. The other product of the reaction, calcium hydroxide, is the substance seen in unsightly piles around caves. Ultimately this basic material will react with the nearest available acid, so-called carbonic acid, better visualised as carbon dioxide in damp air:-
Ca(OH)2 + CO2 = CaCO3 + H2O
The first product of the reaction is calcium carbonate, also found as chalk, marble, and in certain circumstances, limestone. The second is water, which you will remember was added to the carbide in the first place to produce acetylene. The three equations can therefore be combined:-
CaC2 + CO2 + H2O = C2H2 + CaCO3
Calcium carbonate either as a solid or as its solution in water is fundamental to caves, so it would therefore not be unreasonable to discard it as carbide waste. This technique would obviate the necessity to remove spent carbide (calcium hydroxide) from caves or to leave it lying around. All that is required then is a carbide lamp that operates on carbonated water!
Two models are proposed for acetylene generators operating under the principles outlined above.
The FLIXBOROUGH Generator
Taking as the norm the standard generator holding 200g of carbide, some 137.5g of carbon dioxide is required. Now the measurement of carbon dioxide in water is carried out using the antiquated units of 'volumes'. A 1 volume solution is just that; for instance one pint of carbon dioxide gas dissolved in one pint of water. Draught beer contains carbon dioxide at about 1 vol., keg beer about 1.3, bottled beer about 2.4 and very fizzy soft drinks up to about 4 vols. The 137.5g of carbon dioxide occupies a volume of 70 litres at normal temperature and pressure. A rigid polythene reservoir of reasonable thickness is suitable for carrying carbonated water at 5 vols. and need therefore have a capacity of a mere 14 litres. To allow for refills of carbide on longer trips, this should be increased to 25 litres, when it can easily be back mounted with shoulder straps. A self-draining valve of the type used in compressed air line water traps enables the carbonate slurry to be discharged from the base of the generator down the leg of the user at random intervals.
The CHERNOBYL Generator
The somewhat bulky apparatus described above has been superceded by another development. To obtain the same amount of carbon dioxide in a smaller space, the gas can be compressed in a metal pressure vessel until it becomes a liquid. Its density is then similar to that of water. Injection of liquid carbon dioxide onto the carbide via a venturi from a water reservoir then achieves the same effect as previously described but in a far smaller package. The generator walls need to be about ¼" thick and constructed of high grade metal (e.g. 316 grade stainless steel). The generator is charged with carbon dioxide from a cylinder before a trip, and scores over the FLIXBOROUGH in that the water can be topped up during use without disturbing the carbon dioxide supply. In addition to its rather high capital cost and need for an annual pressure test, the CHERNOBYL design is unpopular due to the high insurance premiums demanded from the users.
Both types of generator benefit from traditional ones in having pressure fed water supplies; this stops the irritating changes in flame size that occur when bending and crawling.
These advanced designs represent the greatest steps forward in carbide lamp design since the original invention. They are also a positive contribution to cave conservation. I would be pleased to discuss further constructional details with interested parties, and to advise on suitable policies to ensure that next of kin are not left helpless in the likely event of a nasty accident during use.
CMG
PLEASE this is not serious!!!!with Benefits for Cave Conservation
Carbide lamps operate by producing flammable acetylene gas from the reaction between calcium carbide and water, calcium oxide (lime) also being generated:-
CaC2 + H2O = C2H2 + CaO
There is an instantaneous further reaction of the calcium oxide produced with more water to produce what is often called slaked lime:-
CaO + H2O = Ca(OH)2
The acetylene gas burns in air with a hot yellow flame; inclusion in the gas of oxygen before the jet results in better combustion and a much less luminous light blue flame. This is of no use to the caver, but is of use to welders as we have just reinvented the oxy-acetylene blowtorch. The other product of the reaction, calcium hydroxide, is the substance seen in unsightly piles around caves. Ultimately this basic material will react with the nearest available acid, so-called carbonic acid, better visualised as carbon dioxide in damp air:-
Ca(OH)2 + CO2 = CaCO3 + H2O
The first product of the reaction is calcium carbonate, also found as chalk, marble, and in certain circumstances, limestone. The second is water, which you will remember was added to the carbide in the first place to produce acetylene. The three equations can therefore be combined:-
CaC2 + CO2 + H2O = C2H2 + CaCO3
Calcium carbonate either as a solid or as its solution in water is fundamental to caves, so it would therefore not be unreasonable to discard it as carbide waste. This technique would obviate the necessity to remove spent carbide (calcium hydroxide) from caves or to leave it lying around. All that is required then is a carbide lamp that operates on carbonated water!
Two models are proposed for acetylene generators operating under the principles outlined above.
The FLIXBOROUGH Generator
Taking as the norm the standard generator holding 200g of carbide, some 137.5g of carbon dioxide is required. Now the measurement of carbon dioxide in water is carried out using the antiquated units of 'volumes'. A 1 volume solution is just that; for instance one pint of carbon dioxide gas dissolved in one pint of water. Draught beer contains carbon dioxide at about 1 vol., keg beer about 1.3, bottled beer about 2.4 and very fizzy soft drinks up to about 4 vols. The 137.5g of carbon dioxide occupies a volume of 70 litres at normal temperature and pressure. A rigid polythene reservoir of reasonable thickness is suitable for carrying carbonated water at 5 vols. and need therefore have a capacity of a mere 14 litres. To allow for refills of carbide on longer trips, this should be increased to 25 litres, when it can easily be back mounted with shoulder straps. A self-draining valve of the type used in compressed air line water traps enables the carbonate slurry to be discharged from the base of the generator down the leg of the user at random intervals.
The CHERNOBYL Generator
The somewhat bulky apparatus described above has been superceded by another development. To obtain the same amount of carbon dioxide in a smaller space, the gas can be compressed in a metal pressure vessel until it becomes a liquid. Its density is then similar to that of water. Injection of liquid carbon dioxide onto the carbide via a venturi from a water reservoir then achieves the same effect as previously described but in a far smaller package. The generator walls need to be about ¼" thick and constructed of high grade metal (e.g. 316 grade stainless steel). The generator is charged with carbon dioxide from a cylinder before a trip, and scores over the FLIXBOROUGH in that the water can be topped up during use without disturbing the carbon dioxide supply. In addition to its rather high capital cost and need for an annual pressure test, the CHERNOBYL design is unpopular due to the high insurance premiums demanded from the users.
Both types of generator benefit from traditional ones in having pressure fed water supplies; this stops the irritating changes in flame size that occur when bending and crawling.
These advanced designs represent the greatest steps forward in carbide lamp design since the original invention. They are also a positive contribution to cave conservation. I would be pleased to discuss further constructional details with interested parties, and to advise on suitable policies to ensure that next of kin are not left helpless in the likely event of a nasty accident during use.
CMG
gus horsley
New member
I've also heard that a design flaw in the Chernobyl generator is that it has to be carried around in a three million ton concrete block which impedes the user a bit. Otherwise a novel idea and with the added bonus that the previously described mirrors can be attached to the concrete using an acetylene-powered drill. Just ignore all this. Please.
AndyF
New member
martinr said:
Went to Good Luck mine last year, some geezer we RV'd with for the trip took a candle in piece on bent copper pipe.
"Never underestimate a candle" he said...
Methinks "never overestimate a candle either...."
Must admit though, we do often burn a couple of nitelights at dig sites...seems to make it more......light.... In ikea they are £2 for 100, even cheaper than batteries.. (Ikea batteries are great BTW, made by VARTA)
Candles also give off quite a lot of heat, but use up all the oxygen in return, good trade.
Les W
Active member
martinr said:
Now you're talking
BDI's simply have to be the most reliable, friendly, non polluting (apart from the odd drip of wax) light source I know of. They don't require fettling, don't need batteries, cast a warm friendly glow and if you get too hungry you can eat them.
Can't see the bottom of big pitches (or even the top
- actually you can't see much of anything)Obviously if you do cave on candles as your primary light source then tweed jackets and plus fours are also obligatory, and a flat cap (no helmet needed - perhaps this ties in with another thread here)
Don't forget to cave in large parties, use large coils of rope ladders - with hemp rope of course. Also, make sure you have plenty of food (or more candles to eat) as even the most simple trips can take many hours 
graham
New member
Les W said:martinr said:
Now you're talking
BDI's simply have to be the most reliable, friendly, non polluting (apart from the odd drip of wax) light source I know of. They don't require fettling, don't need batteries, cast a warm friendly glow and if you get too hungry you can eat them.
Can't see the bottom of big pitches (or even the top
Obviously if you do cave on candles as your primary light source then tweed jackets and plus fours are also obligatory, and a flat cap (no helmet needed - perhaps this ties in with another thread here)
What do you mean "non-polluting"?
Surely they give off greenhouse gases?
Les W
Active member
graham said:
I think all the greenhouse gas they give off stays in the cave
Perhaps that is what causes the bad air in the summer. Oh my god, we must ban candles immediatly, everybody should upgrade to something more reliable and less polluting, how about...
...Carbide lights
(back on thread now)
M
MSD
Guest
Beeswax or tallow candles are greenhouse neutral (as natural products). Candles made of paraffin wax are not greenhouse neutral, since they are a petrochemical product.
I suppose vegetarians might object to tallow candles. Strict vegans would object to beeswax. Life is a moral minefield....
Mark
I suppose vegetarians might object to tallow candles. Strict vegans would object to beeswax. Life is a moral minefield....
Mark
E
emgee
Guest
MSD said:
Indeed. Whilst most of us wouldn't object to the odd candle how would people feel about lighting say five hundred in a cave?
