CNCC permit system

[jasonbirder]

Theory is one thing but the guy has a point?how many farmers would rather see a crisp ?20 note than a signed permit?and conversely how many cavers would rather just stump up a bit of beer money rather than jumping through the hoops of applying for a CNCC permit (in writing!!! In advance!!! It is the 21st century you know?) particularly if it?s a spur of the moment trip or a non club trip?

 

[Peter Burgess]

... Everyone loves a bit of extra cash and in my experience from living around the world, I have found a little cash can go a long way in securing a stronger relationship with the landowner, police, fellow cavers etc...

Looks like bribery and corruption to me.

Speaking personally, If I found someone ignoring access agreements to land that I owned and they thought that bribing me would ease the situation they would find themselves on the end of a boot at the very least.

If that's the level of respect a trespasser had with the landowner or access body, how much respect would they have for the cave?

 

[madjbs]

I don’t see why it would be disrespectful to give a donation for repairing footpaths etc.. to a farmer, I think he would be very grateful. Some like to label it a bribe or corruption but I always thought a bribe was to get out of something illegal, is caving illegal? Anyhow, whoever said corruption doesnt smooth things out somewhat

 

[paul]

Sorry - is that not what I said?

Not from my reading. You seem to be saying the CROW Act does not allow access to caves, but this needs to be confirmed. I'm saying that the CROW Act doesn't say anything positive about the issue, and the definitive position will depend on an extrapolation from the examples of permitted use.

However, I suspect that I'm probably being unduly sensitive on this issue, because people who should know better continue to come out with statements that misrepresent the situation.

Fair enough. It's actually a case of semantics. "The CROW Act does not at the moment allow free access to caves " didn't mean to imply it prevented access, either. It neither allows nor denies access - until there has been a test case. This what I meant.

 

[paul]

Theory is one thing but the guy has a point…how many farmers would rather see a crisp ?20 note than a signed permit…and conversely how many cavers would rather just stump up a bit of beer money rather than jumping through the hoops of applying for a CNCC permit (in writing!!! In advance!!! It is the 21st century you know…) particularly if it’s a spur of the moment trip or a non club trip…

We're not talking about some passing farmer wanting to inspect a permit. We're talking about the agreement with the landowner - who may not even live anywhere near the land in question.

You do not need to "jump through hoops" to gain a permit. Simply write as requested. It may be the 21st Century but as you need to both display the permit in a car while parked  (in the case of Leck Fell) and post it into the Estate Office when leaving at the end of the day plus somebody has to pay for posting the permit to you, then an SAE is needed.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Its easy to understand. I can't see why the century we are in has any relevance. All the postal infrastructure we had in the 20th century is still working. Unless, of course, lots of people have lost (or never had) the ability to write.

 

[madjbs]

Well this is even better, if the landowner doesn’t live nearby or visit the land himself and relies on local farmers to police his caves then he isn’t going to see these under the table cavers. All the more reason why a passing farmer WOULD be willing to accept a crisp 20 in return for not informing the landowner.

 

[Peter Burgess]

And some people wonder why some caves get sealed......

 

[Peter Burgess]

There was once a landowner who provoked discussion on the internet about access, permissions, payments, etc etc. Said person hid behind a silly name, pretended not to be connected with the owners, and tried to catch cavers out by encouraging them to post irresponsible statements. Even if you are not someone similar, you seem to be trying exactly the same sort of tactic.

 

[jasonbirder]

Its easy to understand. I can't see why the century we are in has any relevance. All the postal infrastructure we had in the 20th century is still working

We live in an age where informality (we no longer have to doff our caps to the landed gentry) and high speed communications technology have made the posted letter obsolete...it makes the idea of planning weeks in advance and writing physically to someone (with the de facto approval of a third party - the club I am a member of) seem extremely outdated...
I wouldn't do business by post (phone, face to face, Email and courier yes...post not a chance!), I wouldn't dream of buying any goods or services by post...so why use the post merely for permission to park on a bit of gravel and walk across fields (many of which CROW has already given free access to for the walker if not the caver...)
I'm not knocking the work the CNCC do...but if we all leap to the defence of the current system there will be no motivation for them to bring things up to date will there

 

[SamT]

Theory is one thing but the guy has a point?how many farmers would rather see a crisp ?20 note than a signed permit?

And thats a good thing???   I personally would rather have a signed permit - than have to cough up ?20 quid every time i wanted to go caving.

The problem is, it sets a president. A lot of farmers have fallen on hard times recently, and if they get a wiff that they can start charging proper money for access to the caves then we are all in trouble, and the free (or virtually free) access that we've had to our caves for so long may become a thing of the past.

So can we please just stop this nonsence. The bottom line is, all we can do is obay the guidelines laid down by the CNCC. They are there for very good and valid reasons.

If your not willing to do that - then just stay schtum.

Perhaps this could be the subject of an open forum discussion at hidden earth

 

[jasonbirder]

I'm not against gaining landowner permission and i wouldn't (nor would I approve of) people ignoring the current access agreements...
But the current system is a bit outdated...i'd happily pay a ?5 or even a ?10 direct and forgo the hassle of obtaining a permit if it meant i could just rock up and cave...

 

[madjbs]

All the postal infrastructure we had in the 20th century is still working.

The Model T ford worked didn't it? Do you still drive one (you were around when they were introduced weren’t you? ) People need to move with the times, in this modern day and age we have amazing things such as e-mail and printers. Hard to adapt I know, but if you want the younger generations to follow your example you need to look cool and not like a bunch of ageing hippies or model T drivers.

 

[SamT]

AArrrrhhhhh - for f*** sake. Can we just leave it.

There is a status quo

dont rock it.

 

[jasonbirder]

Time is money though isn't it...how many individuals rather than clubs can book trips months in advance...i never know where i will be from one week to the next...so the permit system works well for old fashioned club style trips (here is the 2009 meet list...) but for groups of mates that want to plan a weekend on Friday night its an irreleveance
More trips are now done by groups of individuals or informal groupings who co-incidently happen to be members of clubs but do non-club organised trips...

 

[Peter Burgess]

Just because the system has not changed or been improved is no excuse to ignore it. I would agree that it could be better, but if the hoops are there and they are not so difficult to jump through, then what is your problem. Doffing caps to the gentry is irrelevant. We are talking about a caver writing to another caver FFS. If you choose to never write another letter to 'do business' then that is your loss. There are plenty of excellent goods available at good prices, that require a cheque to be posted to the seller. Fortunately, most people are not so narrow minded as to refuse to post a letter because it is 'old fashioned'.

 

[SamT]

Look - if your so hell bent on changing the system - go down to one of the CNCC meetings - raise you issues there. Get involved. Then maybe you can spend some of your precious spare time speaking to and liasing with Land owners over access issues.

Or maybe you just like to spout off on a forum during your lunch hour and go caving in your spare time.

If YOU dont like the system - YOU get involved with the system and see if YOU can improve it.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Sorry, Sam. I didn't see your latest. I think I have made my point. I'll find something more useful to do than sit here and be abused.

 

[jasonbirder]

Status Quo = good
Appreciate what we have and the hard work people have put in to get where we are now
No critisism implied...
But can it be improved? Can it be updated? Can it be made more relevent to todays (rather than the 70s/80's-club-minibus-stones of electron ladders) caving scene...
We'll never know unless we discuss it...

 

[jasonbirder]

Since when is discussion and disagreement abuse?
The whole point of a forum is debate..