M
madjbs
Guest
Can someone actually explain why this permit system is in place? What does it set out to achieve? Is the idea to reduce the amount of cavers in each cave?
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jasonbirder
Member
Really? These days i work on the assumption that if people want my money...they have to make my life easier...if they don't i'll just go somewhere else...
graham
New member
Amongst other things, yes. If you had read all the preceding posts you would see a note about limiting the number of parties on the fells on a given day.
There is no doubt that systems could be improved; possibly requests could be made online and permits emailed, to be printed by the recipient for in-car display and subsequent delivery to an estate office.
However, there is no doubt that some sort of system is required and, as I have neither the time nor the energy to undertake the work that the CNCC VOLUNTEERS carry out, I'll just go along with the one that we've got.
There is no doubt that systems could be improved; possibly requests could be made online and permits emailed, to be printed by the recipient for in-car display and subsequent delivery to an estate office.
However, there is no doubt that some sort of system is required and, as I have neither the time nor the energy to undertake the work that the CNCC VOLUNTEERS carry out, I'll just go along with the one that we've got.
spikey
New member
Point is, that in today's litigious society, there's a lot more at stake than whether the farmer wants to stuff a "crisp 20" in his sky rocket. I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that bodies such as the CNCC, DCA etc, by monitoring and providing permits for access also provide the landowner with various indemnities.
If, in the event of an accident, it could be proved that someone had accepted money to allow access, it could be theorised he was charging a fee for access, and that would, legally speaking, open up a whole new can of worms.
I'm with the original poster on the lack of access a body like CNCC provices for individual or small clubs (groups of individuals may be a better description), but rules is rules, and these regional bodies have expended a lot of time and effort in setting up the agreements in the first place. Like it or lump it I'm afraid.
It has also been discussed at length previously, here http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,4204.0.html
PS. Sam, would that be "precedent" or are you referring to "Super Tuesday" !!!!! :halo: (New forum pendant!!)
If, in the event of an accident, it could be proved that someone had accepted money to allow access, it could be theorised he was charging a fee for access, and that would, legally speaking, open up a whole new can of worms.
I'm with the original poster on the lack of access a body like CNCC provices for individual or small clubs (groups of individuals may be a better description), but rules is rules, and these regional bodies have expended a lot of time and effort in setting up the agreements in the first place. Like it or lump it I'm afraid.
It has also been discussed at length previously, here http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,4204.0.html
PS. Sam, would that be "precedent" or are you referring to "Super Tuesday" !!!!! :halo: (New forum pendant!!)
SamT
Moderator
Thats a good question madjbs.
Not one Im in a position to answer Im afraid as Im a derbyshire based caver. I suspect Glenn on these forums is your man. Pitlamp ??
I expect that there is a great deal of history tied up in all this. This sort of thing doesnt happen over night. Im sure there are very good reasons - and far more wide ranging than just caver numbers.
Have you ever dealt of negociated a deal with a landowner madjbs. Its no mean feat.
Jason - Im not saying that the system is ideal. far from it. but dont just go shouting that paying 20 quid per cave is fine compared with writing a letter and posting it. You may have just won the lottery - but I aint.
Im sure there is some sort of scope for an online booking system.
Look at insurance companies these days. I bet 20 years ago - you had to fill out an extensive form - post it off and await a response before being covered for your hols. - Now you can just phone up or go online - and your covered instantly - worry about the paper work later.
Im sure the CNCC could develop a similar system.
Not one Im in a position to answer Im afraid as Im a derbyshire based caver. I suspect Glenn on these forums is your man. Pitlamp ??
I expect that there is a great deal of history tied up in all this. This sort of thing doesnt happen over night. Im sure there are very good reasons - and far more wide ranging than just caver numbers.
Have you ever dealt of negociated a deal with a landowner madjbs. Its no mean feat.
Jason - Im not saying that the system is ideal. far from it. but dont just go shouting that paying 20 quid per cave is fine compared with writing a letter and posting it. You may have just won the lottery - but I aint.
Im sure there is some sort of scope for an online booking system.
Look at insurance companies these days. I bet 20 years ago - you had to fill out an extensive form - post it off and await a response before being covered for your hols. - Now you can just phone up or go online - and your covered instantly - worry about the paper work later.
Im sure the CNCC could develop a similar system.
M
madjbs
Guest
An online system would be very easy to set up, a basic system could be set up in a day or two. Make it easy and quick for people to comply with the rules and most cavers will happily obey them. If however, the rules are a complete pain in the but (3 months planning, club only, mail etc..) then a large proportion of people will tell you to get stuffed. Its the same for everything, not just caving.
Hughie
Active member
?5, ?10, ?20? Just to visit a cave? 
Putting my landowner/farmer hat on:- I'll dig the fecking cave for you - just bring yer mates!!
Some people have too much money and not enough common sense. Life is full of hoops - you'll still be jumping through them long after you've packed in caving.
Putting my landowner/farmer hat on:- I'll dig the fecking cave for you - just bring yer mates!!
Some people have too much money and not enough common sense. Life is full of hoops - you'll still be jumping through them long after you've packed in caving.
Peter Burgess
New member
Wookey Hole might be cheaper! At least you don't have to buy any gear!Hughie said:?5, ?10, ?20? Just to visit a cave?
Putting my landowner/farmer hat on:- I'll dig the fecking cave for you - just bring yer mates!!
Some people have too much money and not enough common sense. Life is full of hoops - you'll still be jumping through them long after you've packed in caving.
Hughie
Active member
Hughie said:?5, ?10, ?20? Just to visit a cave?
Putting my landowner/farmer hat on:- I'll dig the fecking cave for you - just bring yer mates!!
Some people have too much money and not enough common sense. Life is full of hoops - you'll still be jumping through them long after you've packed in caving.
Seriously, though, it sets a bad precedent.
jasonbirder
Member
Just to clarify...I didn't mean ?20 each...I meant for a party so if its split between 3 or 4 of you its no bad is it
graham
New member
jasonbirder said:Just to clarify...I didn't mean ?20 each...I meant for a party so if its split between 3 or 4 of you its no bad is it
Ask the average student who already has to pay in the region of forty quid just to travel to Yorkshire for the weekend whether they can afford to then spend a tenner a head on access.
And before anybody asks, no, our lot do not spend all their cash on beer (they haven't got it, not like in my day
:-[ )Peter Burgess
New member
I don't understand why anyone would want to pay ?5, ?10, or ?20 to do something which, with a little preparation and forethought, they could do for nothing.
Someone might have a better answer, but as a rough idea: Not entirely sure of the reasons fells were closed by landowners in the first place (1960s ish) but AFAIK there were bad relations between cavers and landowners. The CNCC was formed to represent northern clubs rather than random clubs/people trying to arrange access (which obviously failed, hence the closures) I also believe the landowners preffered the idea of talking to a regional body rather than individual clubs etc. Permits were introduced probably on the landowners wishes - I doubt, given the bad relations, they would wish hordes of cavers trampling over their land every weekend so sought to control the numbers slightly. And to this day I believe CNCC have tried to negotiate extra permits on a certain fell but the landowner declined..
As for overdoing the pirating and taking the piss: If a landowner wished to close his land to cavers he could do and there is nothing you could do - unless it was access land and you took the matter to court about whether or not caving is classed as outdoor recreation or whatever the wording was.. I wouldn't fancy your chances.
And if you chose to ignore the closure it would no doubt enrage the landowner further to the point where he might seal the cave(s) - and whilst some might be hard to do being big open holes, some are in small shakeholes or manhole entrances - both VERY easily put out of action!!
And as for online/email based permit system for northern caves - the sooner the better. I've used email for OFD access a few times and it works a treat.
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Sam - you seemed to want me to make some comment, so here I am.
I believe the CNCC was formed because there was a messy rescue at (I think) Pegleg Pot in the 1960s. (If you look in the book Race Against Time I'm sure John Frankland and Jim Eyre covered this.) The incident was the final straw in what had for some time been a deteriorating situation. Access to the area was completely withdrawn. If it wasn't for the formation of the CNCC there would probably be no access to Leck and Casterton Fells, quite possibly even today.
One reason why the CNCC works is because it gives landowners a single body to deal with, as opposed to a disparate set of individuals. The CNCC states how it works to landowners and the landowners therefore expect cavers to keep to their side of the agreement. If individuals try to do things differently this jeopardises the whole arrangement.
The CNCC has done huge amounts of good work on cavers' behalf over many years - and still does.
Bear in mind that sometimes it would be neither farmer nor landowner who might catch you; there is a large number of gamekeepers about; their job is to know who is on the land, hence cavers often encounter them.
Handing over cash is the thin end of a dirty great wedge which is in no-one's long term interests.
Forming a "club" so you can get permits is so simple that I cannot see why anyone would find the process at all a problem.
Oh - and for believe me, letter writing is far from "obselete" (heaven forbid!).
If enjoying a caving trip is not deemed worthy of spending 2 minutes to write a note and shove it in an envelope then either the original correspondent isn't a commited caver or (s)he is just trying to wind us all up.
The CNCC has a constitution and regular meetings. How it conducts its business is not inflexible; if someone wants to go to meetings and persuade other attendees that there are better ways using using logical discussion then I'm sure they will be listened to. If these ideas lead to less work for CNCC officers then I'd like to bet they will be very popular! In my view we should be extremely grateful for the work that CNCC officers do for the benefit of all cavers. Like it or not these people are your representatives. So go to a meeting and communicate!
From time to time someone surfaces who seems to have got it into their head that the CNCC exists to stop people going caving. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I believe the CNCC was formed because there was a messy rescue at (I think) Pegleg Pot in the 1960s. (If you look in the book Race Against Time I'm sure John Frankland and Jim Eyre covered this.) The incident was the final straw in what had for some time been a deteriorating situation. Access to the area was completely withdrawn. If it wasn't for the formation of the CNCC there would probably be no access to Leck and Casterton Fells, quite possibly even today.
One reason why the CNCC works is because it gives landowners a single body to deal with, as opposed to a disparate set of individuals. The CNCC states how it works to landowners and the landowners therefore expect cavers to keep to their side of the agreement. If individuals try to do things differently this jeopardises the whole arrangement.
The CNCC has done huge amounts of good work on cavers' behalf over many years - and still does.
Bear in mind that sometimes it would be neither farmer nor landowner who might catch you; there is a large number of gamekeepers about; their job is to know who is on the land, hence cavers often encounter them.
Handing over cash is the thin end of a dirty great wedge which is in no-one's long term interests.
Forming a "club" so you can get permits is so simple that I cannot see why anyone would find the process at all a problem.
Oh - and for believe me, letter writing is far from "obselete" (heaven forbid!).
If enjoying a caving trip is not deemed worthy of spending 2 minutes to write a note and shove it in an envelope then either the original correspondent isn't a commited caver or (s)he is just trying to wind us all up.
The CNCC has a constitution and regular meetings. How it conducts its business is not inflexible; if someone wants to go to meetings and persuade other attendees that there are better ways using using logical discussion then I'm sure they will be listened to. If these ideas lead to less work for CNCC officers then I'd like to bet they will be very popular! In my view we should be extremely grateful for the work that CNCC officers do for the benefit of all cavers. Like it or not these people are your representatives. So go to a meeting and communicate!
From time to time someone surfaces who seems to have got it into their head that the CNCC exists to stop people going caving. Nothing could be further from the truth.
paul
Moderator
madjbs said:
Yes, an online system would be a better idea as would be short notice on gaining a permit. However we are not dealing with commercial organisations with paid staff but are depending on the efforts of volunteers in their spare time. Even if it were to take "a couple of days", there would be the matter of ongoing support and expenses maintaining the system.
jasonbirder said:Just to clarify...I didn't mean ?20 each...I meant for a party so if its split between 3 or 4 of you its no bad is it
As already pointed out: nowhere is there a charge applied to visit a cave other than at show caves. There are very valid reasons for this, mainly from the landowner's point of view. Some caves are accessible on payment of a "trespass fee" or "goodwill fee" which is not the same thing as charging for entry, intentionally.
The whole subject of having to pay at all is something I don't particularly agree with: how many climbers have to pay at any crags in the UK? BUT these are the requirements which the landowner has stipulated and we either comply or access will be withdrawn.
We are starting to repeat the same points now so let's just leave it.
Glenn
Member
Gosh, where did this come from? I've come in from another marathon card printing session in the shed to to find this?
Dunc's overview of why CNCC and the permit system for certain northern fells exists is reasonably accurate.
I would like to empathise that the CNCC manages the permit system on behalf of landowners (as do other Regional Councils). The CNCC would prefer that there was no need for it (the CNCC) to exist, and we could all go caving, but the hard fact is that some landowners do not want cavers on their land - ever. The current permit system is therefore better than nothing. We all accept it is not perfect, but the place to discuss this is not on this forum (where very few CNCC members visit) but, if you feel that strongly about it, at CNCC meetings.
Something that may not be obvious in any suggestion of piracy, is that every time the landowner, or one of his Representatives, sees a caver skulking around shake holes with a crow bar, too many cars parked in the car park (even though they may not be cavers cars), or permnits not displayed, or cars not parked correctly, or anything that the landowner feels he can blame on cavers, it's none of you that gets the 'phone call to come up and explain, it's the volunteers of the CNCC who have to do it. They do it to placate the landowner and maintain access for all cavers.
And when something new is found, who do you think negotiates with the landowner for access?
Oh, and we tried an on-line system for booking permits, but guess what, no one used it.
Glenn
Dunc's overview of why CNCC and the permit system for certain northern fells exists is reasonably accurate.
I would like to empathise that the CNCC manages the permit system on behalf of landowners (as do other Regional Councils). The CNCC would prefer that there was no need for it (the CNCC) to exist, and we could all go caving, but the hard fact is that some landowners do not want cavers on their land - ever. The current permit system is therefore better than nothing. We all accept it is not perfect, but the place to discuss this is not on this forum (where very few CNCC members visit) but, if you feel that strongly about it, at CNCC meetings.
Something that may not be obvious in any suggestion of piracy, is that every time the landowner, or one of his Representatives, sees a caver skulking around shake holes with a crow bar, too many cars parked in the car park (even though they may not be cavers cars), or permnits not displayed, or cars not parked correctly, or anything that the landowner feels he can blame on cavers, it's none of you that gets the 'phone call to come up and explain, it's the volunteers of the CNCC who have to do it. They do it to placate the landowner and maintain access for all cavers.
And when something new is found, who do you think negotiates with the landowner for access?
Oh, and we tried an on-line system for booking permits, but guess what, no one used it.
Glenn
D
dannyfitton87
Guest
Madjbs we all know your really a landowner/farmer testing the water- your tactics won't on us! :spank:
Robert Scott
Member
Dear madjbs
Are you
1. A landowner,
2. A householder (freehold or other, mortgaged or other),
3. A tenant or leasee,
4. Live in rented accommodation,
5. Live with mum & dad,
6. Other (please specify in your answer)?
Answer this to advance to the next stage of the questionnaire.
Thank you in anticipation
Are you
1. A landowner,
2. A householder (freehold or other, mortgaged or other),
3. A tenant or leasee,
4. Live in rented accommodation,
5. Live with mum & dad,
6. Other (please specify in your answer)?
Answer this to advance to the next stage of the questionnaire.
Thank you in anticipation
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