CNCC permit system

[dannyfitton87]

7. Other - Live with Ladyboy

 

[madjbs]

Well this is even better, if the landowner doesn’t live nearby or visit the land himself and relies on local farmers to police his caves then he isn’t going to see these under the table cavers. All the more reason why a passing farmer WOULD be willing to accept a crisp 20 in return for not informing the landowner.

madjbs, I live in the Dales and one of my friends works for one of the landowners in question. He DOES live reasonably locally and I can tell you that he isn't going to be impressed by the ?20 gambit, seeing as his bank balance is in the millions.

If he is sooo rich then why doesn’t he give cavers a break and go and spend some of his money on something fun? I am sure there is better things to do. All money no honey 8)

 

[madjbs]

7. Other - Live with Ladyboy

Excuse me? What on God's earth is a ladyboy? If it is what I think it is could you please keep your perverse navy fetish to yourself. There is no room for these kind of personal accusations on an Internet message board, I hope other cavers agree with me here.

Scotty, are you weighing me up as a future bride? Or is there another reason you want to know how high up in society I am?

 

[cap n chris]

If he is sooo rich then why doesn?t he give cavers a break and go and spend some of his money on something fun? I am sure there is better things to do. All money no honey 8)

Because:
a) We live in a free society
b) He is not you
c) None of your business

 

[graham]

Well this is even better, if the landowner doesn?t live nearby or visit the land himself and relies on local farmers to police his caves then he isn?t going to see these under the table cavers. All the more reason why a passing farmer WOULD be willing to accept a crisp 20 in return for not informing the landowner.

madjbs, I live in the Dales and one of my friends works for one of the landowners in question. He DOES live reasonably locally and I can tell you that he isn't going to be impressed by the ?20 gambit, seeing as his bank balance is in the millions.

If he is sooo rich then why doesn?t he give cavers a break and go and spend some of his money on something fun? I am sure there is better things to do. All money no honey 8)

madjbs: you do seem to be somewhat obsessed with money.

 

[madjbs]

Well this is even better, if the landowner doesn’t live nearby or visit the land himself and relies on local farmers to police his caves then he isn’t going to see these under the table cavers. All the more reason why a passing farmer WOULD be willing to accept a crisp 20 in return for not informing the landowner.

madjbs, I live in the Dales and one of my friends works for one of the landowners in question. He DOES live reasonably locally and I can tell you that he isn't going to be impressed by the ?20 gambit, seeing as his bank balance is in the millions.

If he is sooo rich then why doesn’t he give cavers a break and go and spend some of his money on something fun? I am sure there is better things to do. All money no honey 8)

madjbs: you do seem to be somewhat obsessed with money.

no money no ho(r)ney my friend 

 

[Peter Burgess]

Madjbs we all know your  really a landowner/farmer testing the water- your tactics won't on us!  :spank:

The more he posts, the more obvious it becomes.

 

[madjbs]

If I was a landowner why would I be ACTIVELY encouraging an online permit system? :-\ This would allow more cavers and clubs to obtain FREE permits. Surely if I was a landowner it would be in my interest to make the permits as hard to obtain as possible, as this would give me a larger number of RICH cavers that would be willing to slip me a crisp 20 for the honour of caving on my land(and you can be sure many would).

So how is it possible I am some kind of sheep farmer?

 

[jasonbirder]

I wish people wouldn?t take it quite so personally when the current system is questioned?

No-one is denying there is a workable system in place and I think everyone appreciates the hard work put in behind the scenes by volunteers who manage it and maintain contact with the relevant landowners?

But that doesn?t mean its wrong to question the current system or believe there are ways in which it could be made better?If we say that the status quo is above criticism or questioning nothing would ever change?

I don?t think it is wrong to point out that the current system of clubs applying for permits well in advance in writing is a system that was set up when the caving scene was very different and suited perfectly the modus operandi of those days?

Most trips were officially organised club trips?frequently using a mini-bus?often a large group of people?who would stay locally in caving hut or bunkhouse accomodation ? so would typically be planned well in advance and often organised by a ?meets secretary? who would make the necessary arrangements?the popularity of electron ladders over SRT meant that many trips required a goodly number of people to carry the required kit..so one or two people dropping out wouldn?t necessarily jeopardise the trip or prompt a re-arrangement.

Fast forward to 2008 ? many more trips are by  a couple of individuals with their own transport?todays busy society means peoples free time is less and less predictable so many more trips are arranged on an ad-hoc or impromptu basis, almost universal use of SRT means smaller parties?even if one person drops out a trip might have to be cancelled?these cavers are typically club members but will do many trips outside of the framework of officially organised club ?meets??

So pointing out a more flexible faster reacting system would be ideal isn?t as heretical as some people would have it!

If the current system was perfect there would be no pirating?which we all know occurs and I wouldn?t have looked through my copy of Not for the Faint Hearted and only considered trips that don?t say CNCC Permit required as I really can?t be bothered to go through the hassle of applying

 

[Peter Burgess]

You can usually tell a caver by the stuff they talk about. Nearly every new poster on the forum wants to tell us about the trips they go on, ask for advice about caves they want to visit, ask about what equipment they should get, chat about their fellow cavers. All you have done is want to talk about paying money to gain access. What else are we supposed to think?

 

[madjbs]

You can usually tell a caver by the stuff they talk about. Nearly every new poster on the forum wants to tell us about the trips they go on, ask for advice about caves they want to visit, ask about what equipment they should get, chat about their fellow cavers. All you have done is want to talk about paying money to gain access. What else are we supposed to think?

Well to be perfectly honest, I don't need to talk about what caves to visit or what equipment to buy as I pretty much know everything about these kind of subjects that there is to know. Remember that new to the forum doesn’t mean new to caving . In fact, you guys can ask me questions about these kinds of subjects if you like, I am always happy to pass my experience around.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Go on then. Start a new topic and tell us all about yourself.

 

[MSD]

My (personal) opinion is that the permit system in the Dales should be rethought. My main problems with it are

a) there is no provision for foreign visitors
b)there is no provision for individuals (as opposed to clubs)
c) the turn-around time for permits is too slow and there seems an amazing reluctance to use new technology (which ought to help the people administrating the system quite as much as those applying for permits)
d) a permit system can encourage cavers to go down caves in unsafe weather conditions simply because they have a permit for that day and don't want to wait until they can get a new permit (this is exacerbated by pont c)

Since I don't live in the UK this isn't exactly a burning question for me. But on the occasions when I visit the UK I do try to go caving. Most of my visits are with quite short notice and midweek, so I can't possibly arrange a permit or tag along on a club trip which happens to have a permit. So a permit system administred by CNCC (or others) does precisely nothing for me. According to both the system and the stated views of most people here, I should either meekly accept that all permited caves are off limits or plan my life ludicrously far into the future (which is not possible).

OK, someone like me is not contributing anything to the system. So in a sense I have no reason to complain. But given the dfficulty of enforcing most access agreements it's pretty obvious to me that any system has to be both inclusive and convenient. Someone going caving without a permit risks almost nothing in a personal sense (they can be asked to leave, or maybe get shouted at but that's about it). The main risk they take is messing up access for everyone else. So it's surely in "everyone else's" interest to get that person on board and within the system.

Consider the following scenario:

Clubs still able to pre-book (seems fair enough, clubs need to plan their meets list a long way ahead). Remaining permits made available to individuals/clubs. Applications for these permits made on-line with (say) 24 hours minimum notice. (Reasonable) payment by Pay-Pal or credit card includes insurance levy unless you can quote your BCA insurance number. Permit arrives electronically by PDF in five minutes, print out, go caving. Farmer gets e-mail/SMS informing of forthcoming caving trip with name of leader. (yes, even farmers use technology).

For the vast majority of caves/systems this would work pretty well. There are a few landowners that require longer notice, but if the system was up and running properly such a system might convince them that they could free things up a bit.

Plus NOBODY could argue that it was impossible for them to get a permit.

Mark

 

[Peter Burgess]

A good idea, Mark.

 

[bat]

I have yet to hear of a CNCC permit. What is it? Is it a permit

Well to be perfectly honest, I don't need to talk about what caves to visit or what equipment to buy as I pretty much know everything about these kind of subjects that there is to know. Remember that new to the forum doesn?t mean new to caving . In fact, you guys can ask me questions about these kinds of subjects if you like, I am always happy to pass my experience around.

?? :-\

 

[Peter Burgess]

 

[madjbs]

That is fair enough batty, however you will see I did not claim to know about this bureaucratic stuff. I am a caver at heart and not a form filler so I only claim to be knowledgeable on pure caving subjects.

Thank you

 

[Peter Burgess]

Yeah, right. And you had never heard of the CNCC? Come on.

 

[madjbs]

Go on then. Start a new topic and tell us all about yourself.

While I understand that English may not be your first language, it isn’t mine either , please try to read my post again. I clearly stated you could ask me questions, I did not say I would start some kind of web blot on another thread. If I was to start my own web blot I am sure many of you would find it very interesting but as caving is only a small part of my life I would be afraid a lot of the content would be seen to be offensive or obscene to some members. Therefore I think it is better I don’t start a new thread

Thanks

Yeah, right. And you had never heard of the CNCC? Come on.

I know they made guidebooks, I have photocopies of a number of them in fact.

 

[SamT]

Web blot.

Peter - I fear you where right.

Topic locked for the time being.