Conservation and consequences of CRoW access applied to caving.

[Blakethwaite]

"People"

Sorry NewStuff but hearsay is meaningless. Personal experience is what counts. Why don't you try and go caving in the other places you say are affected. If you make an effort not to irritate people you might find gates open up in front of you.

 

[NewStuff]

People who want to go places, dare not speak out because the current list of places they *can* go is likely to get smaller. Please tell me you think that's fucked up and needs something doing about it? This applies to people across a fair portion of the country, not just N.Wales.

I don't think it's fucked up. I think it's unsubstantiated crap.

The people that are actually talking to me, form different regions, are all talking bollocks, because you say so eh? All the issues they experience are figments of their imagination? Either they speak up and run the very real risk of having access restricted further, or they, and their issues, don't exist? f*** You and your catch 22 logic, that argument is deliberately excluding of people who it would appear, put holes in your cosy little world, and You know it.

Blakethwaite - They don't want to speak up for the above reasons. The clubs controlling access have them between a rock and a hard place. They most certainly are not meaningless. I do have personal experience, but the difference is, I'm not afraid to speak up against this crap, I don't care that they might, in the short term, "blacklist" me. I'm gambling. My bet is that, along with others, we can get access to open up. I'm playing the cards as I see them in front of me. Others that don't have some of the restrictions in life that I do, and can get out more, may not want to gamble with those odds. That's their call, but to ignore them stating there is no issue is just bollocks.

 

[droid]

I'm still baffled about which areas NewStuff is referring to, other than N Wales.

I'm not in any sort of elite, and I don't have a problem in Derbyshire or the Mendip. The only problem with Yorkshire is that the system is a bit archaic.

I'll echo what Blakethwaite said earlier though: NewStuff, if you approach clubs with the attitude you've shown on here, effing and blinding, getting irate, making veiled threats, then most of the clubs I know would suggest sex and travel rather than provide keys....

 

[graham]

I'll echo what Blakethwaite said earlier though: NewStuff, if you approach clubs with the attitude you've shown on here, effing and blinding, getting irate, making veiled threats, then most of the clubs I know would suggest sex and travel rather than provide keys....

Quite. I have spent a fair amount of time over the years negotiating with different landowners in order to facilitate cave access for cavers and so that makes me a member of some kind of 'elite' that wishes to grind him and his ilk into the dirt.

Well, bollocks to that.

 

[NewStuff]

Droid -
Clubs that have a reasonable or easy to use policy don't get anything of the sort.. It's reserved for people and bodies that are causing these issues. It's out of sheer frustration. I'm glad You have not encountered this, because I wouldn't wish it on anyone. From what I read, the DCC have by and large, a decent policy. I can't comment on the mendips really, no idea. I'm not naming people or names that others have mentioned/accused, as it's not my place and they are worried about retribution in the form of more difficult, or total revocation of, access they have at the moment.

Graham -
No, it doesn't, and I'm not sure what kind of pissed up logic leads you to that conclusion. As I have said, I too am talking to landowners  "in order to facilitate cave access for cavers" (and mine explorers). The time I would have issue is if You gained access, but reserved it only for your mates,or made access difficult or impossible while maintaining a fa?ade of reasonable access that, in reality, will never happen.

 

[Pitlamp]

There is, of course, much common ground here. I'm sure we would all like the best possible access to the caves we enjoy visiting and extending. Opinions obviously differ on the best ways to achieve this - and always will.

However - and this is not aimed at any one person in particular - I hope I'm not the only one who is concerned by the amount of swearing and confrontational approaches (by several people) within this discussion. If I was a land owner reading this public discussion I'd think hard about whether I wanted to be dealing with people who express themselves this way.

Swearing does nothing to persuade people to change their minds; evidence based opinions are more effective. It's right that such discussions take place and that access arrangements are revisited from time to time to see if they're still the best we can manage. But let's do it in a civil way guys - we'd not want to create the wrong impression with those folk who do kindly allow us onto their land.

 

[Alex]

That is a very good point Pitlamp. We forget this is an open forum sometimes.

 

[potholer]

Where would you stand if the "gate" was placed by someone who does not have the right to place it?  Surely reaching for the gas axe in this situation wouldn't be classed as "extra-legal"?

That would assume I'd already been through whatever processes need to be gone through to be quite sure that the blocking was being done without legal authority.

Though I guess if that had happened, I'd be unlikely to be in a position where I was just deciding for myself what to do in the dark of night, or talking about 'sympathising without condoning' or whatever, since if a removal action was legal, it wouldn't really *need* to be condoned.

 

[droid]

That is a very good point Pitlamp. We forget this is an open forum sometimes.

It's not just that, Alex, it's that when you start getting frustrated and showing it then people don't take you (or your views) quite so seriously. And NewStuff has a point to make, a serious one.

It also provokes pisstaking and ridicule....and I know this from bitter experience

Don't get the idea I'm a prude: in the right circumstances (and occasionally the wrong ones  :-[ ) I can swear for England.

 

[NigR]

I accept that in some cases, gates are needed, that conservation does need to be considered in the big scheme of things and that every cave is different, I try to see both sides, yet I have the problem? Not somebody that plain refuses to see the other side, admit there is a problem or, god forbid, actually try and sort the problem out?

Graham - The symptoms are locks and gates being removed, but the underlying illness is that people have a big enough problem with the access, wherever these actions happen, to do this. Does that not tell you there is a bloody issue that is causing divisions throughout the whole exploration community, as evidenced by the very existence of this and other closely related threads?

If further proof of this is needed, consider the following:

Last Saturday (6 April) the Agen Allwedd gate was damaged whilst a party was in the cave, the hasp being cut through with (it is surmised) a powered disc cutter.

I first heard of this on Sunday evening and received more details the following day. I find it difficult to believe that word has not filtered through to Mendip before now, hence making the logic behind Graham's attitude (and postings) even more incomprehensible than usual.

 

[droid]

Last Saturday (6 April) the Agen Allwedd gate was damaged whilst a party was in the cave, the hasp being cut through with (it is surmised) a powered disc cutter.

So access was available?

Maybe we could seperate deliberate vandalism related to personal animosity from genuine frustration with access arrangements.

 

[NigR]

Last Saturday (6 April) the Agen Allwedd gate was damaged whilst a party was in the cave, the hasp being cut through with (it is surmised) a powered disc cutter.

So access was available?

Maybe we could seperate deliberate vandalism related to personal animosity from genuine frustration with access arrangements.

Yes, access was available to the party who were in the cave.

Presumably, access was not available to the party with the disc cutter.

Where does the personal animosity come in?

 

[graham]

I find it difficult to believe that word has not filtered through to Mendip before now, hence making the logic behind Graham's attitude (and postings) even more incomprehensible than usual.

I'm in France, sweetie.  :kiss2:

 

[droid]

If access was available, which it presumably was albeit with a bit of planning, why else would someone lug a cordless angle grinder up to Aggy?

I don't believe for a second that every instance of gate removal/damage is down to a righteous belief in open access for all.

 

[graham]

Yes, access was available to the party who were in the cave.

Agreed

Presumably, access was not available to the party with the disc cutter.

Has anyone been banned from Aggie?  :doubt:

I can now think of someone who should be.

If access was available, which it presumably was albeit with a bit of planning, why else would someone lug a cordless angle grinder up to Aggy?

I don't believe for a second that every instance of gate removal/damage is down to a righteous belief in open access for all.

I'm damned sure it isn't.

 

[NewStuff]

I know nothing about the system in question, so I won't comment on it.

However, as I have said repeatedly, does it not stand to reason that easier access will reduce (not eliminate, personal gripes will still happen) these incidents? If not, why not?, I'm interested to know the logic behind that line of reasoning.

 

[droid]

Depends.

Any sort of gate, whether for access control or safety is going to provoke some people who believe in unrestricted access.
Even if there is a perfectly workable access agreement, it won't be convienient enough for some....

 

[Les W]

It is entirely possible that somebody breaking into Aggie is purely scumbags looking to steal stuff from peoples clothing and bags stashed inside.
It has happened before...
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=13354.0

 

[Alex]

It's not just that, Alex, it's that when you start getting frustrated and showing it then people don't take you (or your views) quite so seriously. And NewStuff has a point to make, a serious one.

Aye he does.

 

[bograt]

Mr Speaker; I would like to bring to this house the matter of the "Derbyshire Key", a quite simple device that enables access to gated systems and is available at a reasonable cost from some "pound shops" and most tool suppliers. This ingenious tool enables access to many systems where the owner has expressed a wish to gate holes in the ground for the reason of safety to the general public.