Conservation and consequences of CRoW access applied to caving.

[dunc]

Aggy; whilst it is an "inconvenience" having to apply in advance and have a key posted to you, it is, to be fair, pretty straightforward (based on a non-South Wales club gaining access, perhaps if you're regulars down that way its easier, not sure..) My biggest issue with South Wales was always DYO, if you don't know someone that is a warden then it really can be a pain in the arse to gain access, never considered removing the gate though  :

Whilst it could be scum on the rob, they must be seriously fucking desperate to trudge all the way to Aggy on the off chance they can actually remove the gate (or at least open it) and find a few odds and ends of personal gear tucked just inside. If I were them I'd find something easier to rob, if they have a cutter then there's plenty of choices, it's not rocket science!

North Wales; not done much in the area to be honest, partly because as caving goes, there's not loads to do in the area and a few of the caves are pretty flood prone (or at least that's how it reads in the books). Did have a trip a couple of years back in to Llyn Parc, took a couple of attempts at organising it due to availability issues and whatnot, but we managed it, all via email so pretty straightforward. Turned up on the day to find some twat had shoved some substance or another in the padlock, it took some faffing but the lock was removed and the trip went ahead as planned. I can't recall the names off the top of my head but those involved in organising the trip, being available on the day, leading etc did a fine job, can't fault them.

Whilst I'm not a fan of gates generally (they have their uses in certain places) and over the top access, I really can't understand the mentality of people that sabotage other peoples trips. Why try and ruin someone else's day out because you have a grudge? Do these people really believe they will gain support by undertaking such practices?
If they remove a gate then so be it, but to change locks, stick crap in locks, render the gate un-openable, why? Piss cavers off even more, yeah, let's get a large number of cavers to hate us because we keep fucking up their/other peoples trips, great plan, let's hope they never become MPs, I dread to think of the policies they'd come up with!

If access is controlled by a minority and is limited to a minority or a minority is excluded then it does need looking at, names of those and the caves need mentioning and bringing to the attention of all such that pressure can be brought upon those restricting access. Of course we must ask, why is there a problem - when did it start, why did it start, was there a catalyst to this problem? Usually problems are not "just there" they are started by something and grow in to something bigger and meaner..

 

[droid]

If access is controlled by a minority and is limited to a minority or a minority is excluded then it does need looking at, names of those and the caves need mentioning and bringing to the attention of all such that pressure can be brought upon those restricting access.

Absolutely agree.

Said this a couple of months ago and got shot down by a master debator

 

[bograt]

Steady on, DYO is a show cave and a business, free access would affect the finacial operation, this is one example where I agree with the system. I have been down there a few times and have usually managed to pick up a leader in the Ancient Brit, sometimes the evening before, finally culminating with the offer of becoming a leader myself, because of the rarety of my visits to that area I declined, although I do know a few non South Wales people who are leaders.

 

[dunc]

Steady on, DYO is a show cave and a business, free access would affect the finacial operation, this is one example where I agree with the system. I have been down there a few times and have usually managed to pick up a leader in the Ancient Brit, sometimes the evening before, finally culminating with the offer of becoming a leader myself, because of the rarety of my visits to that area I declined, although I do know a few non South Wales people who are leaders.

I wasn't suggesting DYO should be free access, for obvious reasons, it was merely an example of how awkward an access system can be if you're not in the know, which you obviously are/were.. Whilst this might not be quite the same as what New Stuff is alluding to, it is vaguely similar, in such that if you're in the know then it makes life a hell of a lot easier. To those not in the know it's bloody frustrating and it's easy to understand why people get pissed off and resort to more extreme actions.

Droid; apologies for repeating what you said, I honestly can't remember it being said, but then so much has been said on this topic by so many in god knows how many different topics it hard to keep up! Anyway, I await the next shot 

 

[bograt]

"In the know" in my experience usually means knowing where the cavers drink, Derbyshire used to be the Three Stags, then the Peak in Castleton, maybe the Red Lion at Litton, Yorkshire was the Hill Inn, or the Craven Heiffer, or Hellweth Bridge, Mendip has always been the Hunters, and South Wales the Ancient Brit.
It may be benificial to newcomers to update this list to help them with their access issues.??

 

[Les W]

"In the know" in my experience usually means knowing where the cavers drink...
...Mendip has always been the Hunters...

And always will be...   

Hopefully 

 

[NigR]

Has anyone been banned from Aggie?  :doubt:

I can now think of someone who should be.

Yes, someone was once banned for taking the gate off and publically admitting it. But that was a long time ago and I think he is dead now, so it probably wasn't him this time.

Tell me then, how are you going to ban someone from the cave when;

a) You don't know who it is.

b) They probably haven't got a legitimate right of access anyway.

c) They've got their own disc cutter and know how to use it.

 

[graham]

I'm not going to, 'cos it isn't my personal problem. 

 

[Duncan Price]

It is entirely possible that somebody breaking into Aggie is purely scumbags looking to steal stuff from peoples clothing and bags stashed inside.
It has happened before...
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=13354.0

There were two parties in the cave at the time the lock was removed.  There were belongings left inside the entrance by the logbook which were not disturbed.  Chalk marks were found on the walls of the entrance series (beyond the Tool Shed - the low wet connection between Ogof Gam and Agen Allwedd).

On the balance of probabilities the culprits were not thieves or cavers.

 

[NigR]

On the balance of probabilities the culprits were not thieves or cavers.

If by "cavers" you mean "not belonging to a recognised caving club" then I would tend to agree.

However, it appears that whoever it was went to a fair bit of trouble to gain access to a cave. Is it not true that once inside the cave they then went a fair distance into it in order to see what lay within? If so, they sound like cavers to me.

Mr Speaker; I would like to bring to this house the matter of the "Derbyshire Key", a quite simple device that enables access to gated systems and is available at a reasonable cost from some "pound shops" and most tool suppliers.

Certainly quite a bit easier to carry around with you than a disc cutter!

 

[Jenny P]

The point is that the "Derbyshire key" system is designed to reassure landowners etc. that children or unsuspecting walkers cannot gain access or fall down a shaft accidentally and then sue the landowners if they have an accident.  It is not designed to keep cavers out of caves or mines where they would otherwise need a permit for entry.

It is accepted that anyone "in the know" will be able to gain access (whether they are from a recognised club or not) and they don't need permission in advance.  However,  the person using a spanner to gain entry has done so deliberately and is therefore assumed to have full knowledge of what they are expecting to encounter, so they would be unlikely to be able to get far if they attempted to sue the landowner. 

There are a few cases in Derbyshire where, at the request of the landowner or for some special conservation reason, some type of permit system or prior arrangement for a leader is in place; these caves and mines do have a lock on them.

 

[Space Kadet]

The points of view in this thread appear to be logical and reasonable however people are generally none of these things. 

Acts of vandalism, violence, or sabotage aimed at a cave or anything in general are not always motivated by logical things such as taking someones kit or revenge for the lack of access to a cave.

To quote Batmans butler Alfred: "Some men aren't looking for anything logical like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn". 

There is no logic to breaking down a door to a cave to then do nothing in the cave, but then we are not dealing with logical people. 

Caves have to be protected for the future and if that means you can't get access exactley when you want then that is a small price to pay if you look at what future generations of cavers have to loose.

 

[blackholesun]

Space Kadet,
Does it not seem like a lot of effort for an act of pure vandalism? It's not like they spray painted some genitalia on the gate. This requires time, an expensive power tool and a willingness to do it with a real risk of being heard or caught half way through.

Whether it was a personal vendetta or frustration against access or something else is hard to decide without knowing who to ask, but the idea that they did it for the fun of the vandalism and then happened to go for an explore afterwards seems very unlikely.

As this thread is on the consequences of access, I'm going to suggest that, if on that day, the gate to Aggy had been secured with a Derbyshire key instead of a padlock, then the only real difference would be a smaller repair bill.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Space Kadet has a realistic attitude to this. Believe it or not, there ARE people whose whole agenda is to explore places they are excluded from, just for the kick, and they are not driven by any kind of access agenda. Maybe it's a rebel thing. One in the eye for "authority" or whatever. Give them a key and all the fun is lost. Go check out a few "alternative" exploration websites and you will see what I mean.

 

[bograt]

Yes, just google "Urbex", this is a problem we (as "legit" cavers) will have to give consideration to.

 

[Pete K]

On one particular website you can read about break-ins to Holme Bank Chert Mine near Bakewell. You can gain legit access to that with a walk of about 20 metres to the office building and ask there. Sometimes it's trespassing for trespassing's sake, getting their kicks if you will.
However I doubt that is what is happening in Wales currently with some gates repeatedly being tampered with.

 

[blackholesun]

I didn't think that's what Space Kadet was proposing. I think that he was saying that they may have done it for the fun of breaking the lock, not for the fun of getting inside.

I'm aware of Urbex and have known some of its practitioners. Though I'm not expert, I think that one of its common themes, possibly its only ethic, is that no damage is done. I believe that breaking in with power tools is viewed as cheating, lacking in skill, and risks drawing negative attention to the sport. Obviously not everyone who breaks into things for fun goes along with this.

Back to the topic of the thread, the above 3 posts suggest to me that if we allow access to a cave in a way that doesn't require a key, then the problem of people trying to break in for fun to that cave would disappear.

 

[bograt]

if we allow access to a cave in a way that doesn't require a key, then the problem of people trying to break in for fun to that cave would disappear.

With you on that one Blackhole, all it takes is advising folks to take along another spanner, if the bolts are fitted properly it would also offer more of a challenge to a cordless angle grinder.

 

[Space Kadet]

I didn't mean there should be open access to all caves, quite the opposite.  I meant there are idiots out there who don't gave a dam and caves need protecting from these people.

The trouble is the harder you make it to break into a cave the more of a challege you make it for these morons. 

I suggest getting hold of an old blast door from a warship and at fitting it to Aggy along with and internal lock, except someone would turn up with a thermic lance.

Where can you get hold of land mines??     

 

[robjones]

On one particular website you can read about break-ins to Holme Bank Chert Mine near Bakewell. You can gain legit access to that with a walk of about 20 metres to the office building and ask there. Sometimes it's trespassing for trespassing's sake, getting their kicks if you will.
However I doubt that is what is happening in Wales currently with some gates repeatedly being tampered with.

If you have access to a good collection of Descent, check out letters on p.37 in 62 and pp.36-7 in 64 wherein the (late?*) Bob Lewis set out why he enjoyed gaining access outwith normal channels. I do not condone his actions but find them intriguing as his letters provide insight into at least one variety of mindset that derives satisfaction from gaining access this way.

[* no reference to an obit in the Descent indices down to no.133 but I seem to recall reading one in Descent some years ago]