CROW make my mind up time bca ballot papers are here

[menacer]

If CSCC want us to vote no, that is probably all the motivation we need to vote yes.

That made me laugh Graham
Well this mendip caver is voting yes, simply because I share the uk with lots of other cavers and its not all about me me me. ( if it helps caving up north Im all for it and happy to show my support)
I genuinely wish the drivers of this campaign all the best and if it goes ahead, it works out well for the majority of caving regions.

 

[Pitlamp]

99.9% of digging goes on underground so yes is in the interest of diggers.

A no vote is a vote to continue as present with most cavers thinking DEFRA are wrong.

Just vote yes.

Purely out of interest, please can you share your source of statistics for that assertion about where most digging occurs?

Thanks.

 

[cavermark]

94.692% of the digs I have visited in the last year have been surface digs  :tease:. One has "delicate" access, but isn't on access land. I'm voting YES.

 

[Pitlamp]

I haven't decided how to vote yet Cavermark - but I'd rather be swayed by hard facts than emoticons and people just telling the world how they intend to vote (with no supporting evidence).

I work on a Dales estate and I have a reasonable understanding of how those who run estates think. This makes me contemplate that hrock has raised a very important point. Digging relies on goodwill, which is hard won but very easily lost.

To be honest I'm not finding the decision about how to vote at all easy, the more I look into all the implications.

 

[cavermark]

Sorry I was being flippant. Have another emoticon :-[ 
I was informing Hrock (who knows me well) how I am voting, not trying to convince anyone else.  Perhaps should have done that in a pm.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Vote MAYBE

       


ROTFLMAO

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Seriously though, for those who are undecided consider this: Dow cave and therefore the legendary Dpwbergill Passage is currently closed and the CNCC are negotiating with the landowner. Dow cave is on access land and is accessed by an existing public foot path, voting Yes means this situation cannot arise for this cave and for well over a thousand others in future.

 

[Pitlamp]

I hear what you say.

Then again, could the Shuttleworth entrance to Witches II have been done without the goodwill of the landowner?

I'm really not finding this voting decision easy.

 

[peterk]

Seriously though, for those who are undecided consider this: Dow cave and therefore the legendary Dpwbergill Passage is currently closed and the CNCC are negotiating with the landowner. Dow cave is on access land and is accessed by an existing public foot path, voting Yes means this situation cannot arise for this cave and for well over a thousand others in future.

I do believe the part of Dowbergill Passage isn't on/under access land - field nearest Dow Cave end.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

I hear what you say.

Then again, could the Shuttleworth entrance to Witches II have been done without the goodwill of the landowner?

I'm really not finding this voting decision easy.

But why would we loose that good will? There is a lot of speculation that for some reason "landowners" (who, let's face it are far from a homogeneous group) will throw their toys out of the pram and seek some kind of retribution against cavers.

I think most landowners won't really notice the difference and some may well welcome the clarity with regards to reduced liability.

 

[Chunks]

And let's clarify something; this a vote about how BCA should proceed or campaign in the future.

If this ballot returns a yes vote it doesn't mean we instantly gain access to caves or have all these surface dig issues. It's just a potential change of policy that may or may not result in improved access in certain areas in the future. 'Yes' does not bring any guarantees...

Personally, I'm voting yes, in the hope access is improved/retained (without occasional landowner issues) for future generations - if not then what have we lost?

 

[al]

Then there's the problem if it's classified as a mine cos it's an artificially created shaft like the Garden Path entrance to Lathkill Head Cave.

Interesting. Do you really think that laws which apply to abandoned mines would be used for unnatural cave entrances? Stream Passage Pot, KMC and many others would also fall into this category.

 

[Simon Wilson]

99.9% of digging goes on underground so yes is in the interest of diggers.

A no vote is a vote to continue as present with most cavers thinking DEFRA are wrong.

Just vote yes.

Purely out of interest, please can you share your source of statistics for that assertion about where most digging occurs?

Thanks.

My source is that I made it up just like almost everything that has been said about CRoW on here. The funny thing is that nobody has pointed out that in theory you still need permission to dig underground.

Vote yes and you are voting to extend to the underground something that has worked very well on the surface for the benefit of all. Vote no and you are voting to continue a situation in which most cavers disagree with DEFRA.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Seriously though, for those who are undecided consider this: Dow cave and therefore the legendary Dpwbergill Passage is currently closed and the CNCC are negotiating with the landowner. Dow cave is on access land and is accessed by an existing public foot path, voting Yes means this situation cannot arise for this cave and for well over a thousand others in future.

Dow Cave is not closed. It can't yet be officially announced to be open because the new agreement has not been signed but it is not closed. I'm sorry that I can't be more specific. Hopefully it will be announced soon.

 

[martinm]

If CSCC want us to vote no, that is probably all the motivation we need to vote yes.

That made me laugh Graham
Well this mendip caver is voting yes, simply because I share the uk with lots of other cavers and its not all about me me me. ( if it helps caving up north Im all for it and happy to show my support)
I genuinely wish the drivers of this campaign all the best and if it goes ahead, it works out well for the majority of caving regions.

Hi Menacer. I agree totally. it's not all about me me me. This business won't affect the Peak where I am much, but if I can help peeps in the Dales to ease access to certain fells for caving, then I am all too willing to help out. There is also at least one cave in S. Wales which this will help with.

We should all be helping each other with this stuff. You know it makes sense!

Regards, Mel.

 

[droid]

Then there's the problem if it's classified as a mine cos it's an artificially created shaft
Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.

Surely to be a 'mine' there has to be some sort of mineral extraction, rather than just clearing out a shaft that was there already?

Bit of a red herring methinks.

 

[ah147]

I'm voting yes.

If CRoW is accepted to cover caving:
- more caves are accessible
- that access cannot arbitrarily be removed
- digging continues under the same system it currently does
- landowners liability is solidified as basically none, which could actually help digging negotiations about any passage discovered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Simon Wilson]

I'm voting yes.

If CRoW is accepted to cover caving:
- more caves are accessible
- that access cannot arbitrarily be removed
- digging continues under the same system it currently does
- landowners liability is solidified as basically none, which could actually help digging negotiations about any passage discovered.

Well said.

In the North the main argument against has been that it could make it more difficult to get permission for digging. That is just speculation and there seems to be at least as much chance that it would make it easier to negotiate access for a dig.

 

[ah147]

Obviously for digging, the landowners liability is the same as it is currently.

It's any passage discovered that it would be covered for. So...


Current system: you want to come dig on my land, so if something else is found I am liable to anyone that goes down it?

CRoW: so you diggers can provide me with liability insurance and liability waivers and if you find anything, I'm not liable to anyone accessing it?


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[Simon Wilson]

You're talking about surface digging of course.

When people talk about digging we should remember that most digging is out of sight and never a problem.