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CROW make my mind up time bca ballot papers are here

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Bottlebank

New member
Badlad said:
Those that are still undecided may care to consider this.

Generally speaking relationships between all recreational users and landowners has improved over the last decade.  This is partly due to a generational changes in attitude and the realisation that the rural economy depends as much on tourism and recreational users as it does on traditional income from farming etc.  For many landowners, especially the large estates, it is the liability of allowing cavers onto their land that concerns them most.  Including caving under CRoW would reduce this liability to levels of common trespass - a situation which is very appealing to landowners.

One case study is that of the Ingleborough Estate.  Last Christmas, the landowner, Dr Farrar sadly passed away.  Under his ownership, the Ingleborough Estate controlled their own access to the caves on their land and he was very generous with it.  Any caver could apply for permission through the Clapham Estate office.  The land agents have now moved to Clitheroe and no longer wish to control their own access. They do still have concerns over their liability and therefore are in the process of passing access control onto the CNCC.  However, the CNCC have repeatedly stated, including as recently as the last meeting, that they will only control access on behalf of their member clubs through their traditional club permit systems.  Whatever the eventual outcome of this case, whether it forces CNCC to change or not, it demonstrates that any change of landowner can have an uncertain or more restrictive effect on cave access. 

A lot of scaremongering about the reaction of landowners to CRoW has been made without any evidence to support it.  On the contrary, in the Yorkshire Dales NP at least, there is ample evidence that the conflicts and animosity between landowners and recreational users that were predicted never arose.  As evidence I offer two quotes from the Chairman of the Yorkshire Dales Local Access Forum (a statutory body set up under CRoW), In 2006;

“..indications are that many of the problems and pressures envisaged by some have not materialised and that, in the main, users have been responsible and understanding of the needs of those that farm, own and manage land over which the new rights can now be exercised.”

And again in 2009;

“Indeed, it may be that the landowning/farming interest is now confident that public access does not threaten its own interests.”

Why should it be so different for caving?

Tim,

One thing we can probably both agree on is that the CNCC, even if it's only relevant until CRoW comes in IF it does, needs to sort it's ridiculous "member club only" mentality.

It's not scaremongering to highlight potential problems, but it is na?ve to dismiss them.

For example http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=17182.0 is a considered statement by both sides in this debate (pretty much the only one so far), and recognises one potential problem. Landowners concerns about liability, concerns you recognise they have - and not because of any animosity - could easily result in refusal of digging permission in future as a direct result of CRoW applying to caving.

That said if this goes through I hope you are right, I just worry that you are wrong, there's little hard evidence on either side, the discussion is essentially about risk, and what risk is acceptable to individuals.

Tony
 

droid

Active member
mmilner said:
Hi Droid. The Garden Path entrance to Lathkill Head Cave is an artificially created shaft, not a natural shaft that was there already. It was mined. Actually Lathkill Head upper entrance is also mined, but that is not on access land, but has free access! It's quite complicated!  And what do you classify as mineral extraction? The extraction of limestone could be classified as that. (Calcium Carbonate, maybe for use in a lime kiln or wall.) It is a grey area, but one which DCA are very aware of.

Thanks for that, Mel. Certainly 'limestone' counts as a mineral under the legislation. The point being that the purpose of the shaft should be mineral extraction/access to such, rather than cave access. That's my reading, but I'm no expert.
 

droid

Active member
Given that none of us can accurately predict the future, most of the statements on this subject, including those of eminent QCs, can be regarded as 'views'.
 

al

Member
droid said:
Given that none of us can accurately predict the future, most of the statements on this subject, including those of eminent QCs, can be regarded as 'views'.

I would bet that the matter won't ever be resolved until a landowner actually sues a caver through the courts - and I can't really see that ever happening.

However, I fully agree that our national body should try - the current state of affairs is ridiculous, and the arguments against concern exceptions which can be adequately dealt with as such.
 

Bottlebank

New member
TheBitterEnd said:
Bottlebank said:
...
For example http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=17182.0 is a considered statement by both sides in this debate
...
Tony

No it is not, it is a statement hashed together by you and Bob Mehew and represents the views of two people.

It wasn't "hashed" together, a fair amount of discussion took place over several days after which a joint statement was agreed.

It represents the personal views of two people on opposing sides of the debate, considering one aspect of the debate, and is the only joint statement I've seen in which both sides of the argument have acknowledged the others views and tried to put some clear considered argument in a readable way for people to make their own judgement on.

The feedback I've had is that quite a few people found it helpful.

By all means let's see if we can't do the same with another area of the debate - you choose the subject - if it's an area I can debate with you I will and if not let's see if we can find someone that can.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
[admin]Advance notice. To ALL forum users.

People from both sides of the argument are passionate about access issues. In the past, posting on this subject has descended into baiting, bullying and bickering. We have been told time and time again that this puts people off UKcaving. I am sure forum users would rather be informed, hear others' opinions and be entertained. So, please at all times, keep discussion civil. Thank you in advance.[/admin]
 

cavermark

New member
It's probably appropriate that this is happening in pantomime season - "oh yes it is.... oh no it isn't... oh yes it will.... oh no it won't....."  :tease:
 

ah147

New member
I think Bob Mehews and Bottlebanks article is most helpful and relevant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Peter Burgess said:
Some people are getting more than one ballot paper. That cannot be right.

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/Community/viewtopic.aspx?p=147145#msg147145
The poll is for ALL members, that includes clubs, regional councils and so on.  So a person may get one polling paper as an individual member of BCA and a second one as the contact point for the club.  I note a later posting by SimonRL on your link clearly identifies his two polling papers were sufficiently well addressed to clearly distinguish between the two roles.  (I have had an email from one person who has had 4 polling papers.  He was able to clarify the difference between them.)
 

Bottlebank

New member
Bob Mehew said:
Peter Burgess said:
Some people are getting more than one ballot paper. That cannot be right.

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/Community/viewtopic.aspx?p=147145#msg147145
The poll is for ALL members, that includes clubs, regional councils and so on.  So a person may get one polling paper as an individual member of BCA and a second one as the contact point for the club.  I note a later posting by SimonRL on your link clearly identifies his two polling papers were sufficiently well addressed to clearly distinguish between the two roles.  (I have had an email from one person who has had 4 polling papers.  He was able to clarify the difference between them.)

We had our AGM on Saturday night, our Secretary had received the ballot papers but no one realised I don't think that the club had a separate vote. It's a shame as we could have voted properly on it had we realised.

Our next meeting is this time next year!
 

Peter Burgess

New member
That's fine, Bob. And it makes sense. You will, no doubt, have sent the paper to whoever administers BCA business for the group. One would hope they would ask the governing body of the club in question how to vote, or whether to vote at all. I can see scope for abuse there, however. In our case, we have not formally sought the views of all our members, and have no more committee meetings before the poll deadline. Fortunately, I suppose, the non-individual votes will be a small fraction of the total.
 

CatM

Moderator
I'm confused... why do clubs need a vote when all of their members will get an individual vote anyway?
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
Peter Burgess said:
That's fine, Bob. And it makes sense. You will, no doubt, have sent the paper to whoever administers BCA business for the group. One would hope they would ask the governing body of the club in question how to vote, or whether to vote at all. I can see scope for abuse there, however. In our case, we have not formally sought the views of all our members, and have no more committee meetings before the poll deadline. Fortunately, I suppose, the non-individual votes will be a small fraction of the total.
as a club member you give officers the right to take a range of decisions in the name of your club, many of which are done without consultation.  You (& I) may not like it at times but that is how clubs are run. 
CatM said:
I'm confused... why do clubs need a vote when all of their members will get an individual vote anyway?
because they are members in their own right.  The membership of BCA has three parts, individuals, groups (like clubs) and associates (commercial organisations). 
 

Bottlebank

New member
Peter Burgess said:
That's fine, Bob. And it makes sense. You will, no doubt, have sent the paper to whoever administers BCA business for the group. One would hope they would ask the governing body of the club in question how to vote, or whether to vote at all. I can see scope for abuse there, however. In our case, we have not formally sought the views of all our members, and have no more committee meetings before the poll deadline. Fortunately, I suppose, the non-individual votes will be a small fraction of the total.

I suspect it's down to excess haste and poor communication really, the BCA seem to be trying to rush this, "minor" details such as who or what can vote and the need to get detailed arguments for the case for either side have been pushed aside.

Part of this seems to be the confusion or disconnection that exists in the BCA, where some are telling us the BCA want to know whether their members want to look more closely at this, whilst the ballot question is asking whether the BCA should campaign for it - two very different questions.

I've just opened mine, and to me at least half of the points on the list of what will happen in the event of a "Yes" vote should have been dealt with before a ballot for a campaign.

I'm also particularly concerned by the first sentence in the second paragraph on the front page - "In September 2014 BCA met informally with Natural England and it is clear they intend to stand by their original interpretation of the Act."

Let's be clear - this could take years - and may never happen.

Bob Mehew said:
Peter Burgess said:
That's fine, Bob. And it makes sense. You will, no doubt, have sent the paper to whoever administers BCA business for the group. One would hope they would ask the governing body of the club in question how to vote, or whether to vote at all. I can see scope for abuse there, however. In our case, we have not formally sought the views of all our members, and have no more committee meetings before the poll deadline. Fortunately, I suppose, the non-individual votes will be a small fraction of the total.
as a club member you give officers the right to take a range of decisions in the name of your club, many of which are done without consultation.  You (& I) may not like it at times but that is how clubs are run. 

Bob, that's true, but the BCA say this issue is sufficiently important for a full membership poll to be needed. Putting probably the majority of clubs in the position where Officers have no choice other than to abstain or vote without backing of their membership flies in the face of this - because of the 18th December deadline.
 

Bob Mehew

Well-known member
hrock said:
would be good if some one did a forum filter so i could read 10% of it and get most of it covered.
Issue 240 of Descent at page 26 to 28 contains a balanced article.  http://tinyurl.com/pro-CRoW-caving-01 contains the document put out by Tim, Jenny & I at Hidden Earth.  http://tinyurl.com/pro-CRoW-caving-02 contains some details about how Section 26 operates.    http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=17182.0 covers opposing views on the impact on digging (which is not covered by CRoW).

 
 

TheBitterEnd

Well-known member
ah147 said:
I think Bob Mehews and Bottlebanks article is most helpful and relevant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I never said it wasn't, I was just making the point that it represents the views of two individuals and not any sort of "official" position.
 

Bottlebank

New member
TheBitterEnd said:
ah147 said:
I think Bob Mehews and Bottlebanks article is most helpful and relevant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I never said it wasn't, I was just making the point that it represents the views of two individuals and not any sort of "official" position.

We made it perfectly clear they were personal views.

So far as I can see the only organisation expressing an official position is the CSCC - and look where that's got them!
 

Andy Sparrow

Active member
My other half, Rachel, has two ballot papers.  One is addressed simply to her, the other to her at Cheddar Caving Club.  The papers are identical and there is no explanation as to why she has received two.  I can only presume, having read this thread, that one of the ballot papers is for the club.  I wonder how many of these club forms will be used erroneously by individuals? 
 
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