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Mossdale-Black Keld

Goydenman

Well-known member
Excellent work Langcliffe well done  (y)
What you have provided is a good starting point and provides a useful basis to build from.  I'm starting to get excited about the prospect and nothing has actually happend yet  :D I will be uncontrollable when permission is sought and if granted for this project.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Hello folks - sorry I've not posted anything for a while; have been very busy with work and have been waiting for a slightly more enthusiastic endorsement of the idea of a meeting for the suggested date - and I have not made arrangements just yet.

My thoughts at the moment (based partly on certian private messages I've received) are:

1. Various groups of us are communicating independently and we have a situation where nobody is sure of everything being discussed. I feel this needs changing.

2. There is considerable momentum and we really should have an email group set up now (not associated with this forum) so people can now discuss things out of the public eye. I believe someone may be volunteering to set this up shortly.

3. There are certain key people that we really need to ask to be involved, who (I think) don't use this forum.

4. Assuming there is general agreement about (3) above then I wonder if it would be sensible to put back the date of our initial get together - perhaps to a date that can be agreed as a result of a private email circulation list, once set up. This would then give a bit more time to try and arrange for said key people to join us at a gathering of interested folks.
 

stevejw

Member
I'm happy to compile this list. If you would like to receive further discussion detail for this thread please PM me your email address and I will copy you in.
 
U

ug

Guest
posting so i can recieve topic notifications.
new to the site, spent far too much time trawling it, recomended the the topic
thru the local caving club egroup site.
will be lurking in the background (for now at least....)

ug
 

stevejw

Member
hydrophobia said:
I'm happy to compile this list. If you would like to receive further discussion detail for this thread please PM me your email address and I will copy you in.

Now active PM to join.
 

stevejw

Member
Pitlamp said:
I'm happy to organise a gathering that Saturday at 7-30 p.m. (i.e 24th April at the New Inn, Clapham) if it suits other folk? Please can anyone else interested let us know if this is OK and, if so, I'll go and see the manager later this week. I'm pretty sure we can borrow that private room but I'd be happier having a better idea if it suits everyone before going ahead and making arrangements.

Meeting 24th April at the New Inn is cancelled. Details follow.
 

tomknapp

New member
Pitlamp said:
Can someone who knows identify the grid reference of the relevant shaft? Once we have this information we can make some discrete equiries. I'd be willing to help with this stage of things but realistically I'll not have time to get involved a great deal directly if this idea does get off the ground eventually.

The footway shaft is at SE02737 67542. Was there yesterday.

Tom Knapp
 

tomknapp

New member
Assuming Fossil Pot GR SE018 670 that gives a line 3.7 miles.
I thought I knew the shafts around there, but that sounds like a new one to me.

Would be grateful for an NGR to enable me to view & photo it - I usually transmit my findings to Mike Gill.

Cheers

Tom Knapp
knuckledragger said:
Hi there Wren

As you well know, there are hundreds of shafts, both man made and natural on Grassington moor. A lot of them have collapsed or been filled in.

Just reading a book about Eli Simpson at the moment. In the late 30's he photographed and examined all the shafts and shakeholes between Grimwith Resevoir and Mossdale/Bycliffe. He then recruited a young Bob Leakey to descend them but found nothing. Shortly after this Leakey pushed Mossdale Caverns and found about 4 miles of passage but not the Master Cave.

Simpson reckons theres something bigger than GG under Grassington Moor (me too).

I was hoping to find 'caverns measureless to man' last time I went down Fossil Pot but came out with nothing but a ripped caving suit and a few fossils.

There is an open shaft (quite deep) between Fossil Pot and Black Keld which I'm hoping to descend soon. Just working on access.  I know loads of people and clubs (especially your old club - ULSA) have poked around up there in the past but things change and you never know!! Will let you know if I find anything big!!

Will lend you the Simpson book. Good to see you on Wednesday at GrassWoods.

 

tomknapp

New member
The South Cocklake level ran from c. SD993 702 to SE001 703. There are a couple of open shafts at SD 99529 70271 and SD99564 70285 - presumably they just went down to the level.
There are several open shafts at the top of the hill in area SE000 704.

I wonder if the shafts you refer to are further West?

I have been running a project for some years mow to identify and photograph as many shafts & levels as possible. Would like to help if pos.

Tom
Wren said:
Just been examining some shafts above Scar Gill House, on the path up towards Capplestone Gate.  We found a few very interesting holes and I just wondered if anyone had investigated them, or knew of any reports.  These shafts are almost in a direct line from Mossdale to Black Keld and should any lead to a way through to the Great Scar then there is the possibility of great glory!  Cheers.
 

tomknapp

New member
Hi Tom,



The other week I was looking at the cavers' discussion about the Grassington Moor Caverns and noticed that you had been contributing.  Perhaps you could pass on the following comments from me, please.



The location Old Turf Pits Shaft is the crater at the NGR given in the discussion.  This was known to members of the BSA in the early 1940s, but the shaft had already collapsed and so they explored any open shaft in the
(forlorn) hope that they might prove to connect with the cavern.  Much of their work was around Glory Shaft, about 350 metres to the south of OTP.
They looked at OTP's footway in November 1941 and produced a plan/section which looks much like that produced by Roe.  They gave the total depth as 70 feet to a collapse, whereas Roe gives 58 feet.



The minerals on Grassington Moor are the property of the Chatsworth Estate (Duke of Devonshire).  The Estate Agent (it was Ben Hayes) at Bolton Abbey is probably the best first contact.  The surface is controlled by the 'Moor Committee' under the aegis of the National Park.  The shaft is also part of a Scheduled Monument, which would require Scheduled Monument Consent (The Secretary of State must be informed about any work which might affect a monument above or below ground, and English Heritage gives advice to the Government on each application) before anything was done.  Should you choose to clean out the shaft, all their permissions would be needed.  In addition, for such a major project, you would have to register the dig with the Mines Inspectorate and comply with their requirements, because you are reopening a mine.  No doubt this will lead to tirades about 'Elf & Safety', but experience in other areas (following a death caused by a digger falling into an unfenced dig) has shown them to be reasonable and helpful - they will not allow the downright dangerous.



The shaft should be around 230 feet deep to the 40 fathom level.  This passes through (roughly) 10 feet of surface clay, 50 feet of shale, 40 feet of Top Grit, 15 feet of shale, 85 feet of Bearing Grit, 10 feet of shale and 20 feet of Middle Limestone.  The Top Grit should be competent, so the shaft has probably run from a depth of no more than 60 feet (probably much less), but that could be influenced by collapses of voids (worked out areas) on Turf Pits Vein, which runs close by the shaft.



Cavers should also be aware that there were other caverns on Grassington Moor.  Miners hit 'opens' near Glory and Pit (or Old) Moss Mines (870 metres SE of OTP).  There was also the 'fissure' which was reputedly discovered near How Gill Shaft (SE 0228.6815).



To what extent the Duke's Level affected hydrology in the Turf Pits area I cannot say, but there was a long link on Slanter Vein at the 42 fathom level.  Glory and Pit Moss were both drained by it.



Good luck.



Mike

 

Alex

Well-known member
Sounds like it will never happen then :( Too much red tape. Not sure why a collapsed mine shaft is counted as a monument though?
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Alex said:
Sounds like it will never happen then :( Too much red tape. Not sure why a collapsed mine shaft is counted as a monument though?
Probably just by being included in a designated area. SAM protection extends to include everything underground as well as on the surface. Also, a shaft is more than just a hole in the ground as it may also include surface shaft-related archaeology which might be disturbed by new engineering, spoil-dumping, collar stabilisation etc.
 

khakipuce

New member
I guess it is the site and all it's artifacts that are scheduled, so shafts are included. I wouldn't read too much into the terminology, "Scheduled Monument" is just a means of protecting it, it doesn't have to be "monumental"!

I just had a quick look on English Heritage's site and in the "Heritage at Risk" register 2009 and Grassington's PRINCIPAL VULNERABILITY is given as Dumping. It also gives an English Heritage contact - may be worth someone talking to him to find out what the issues are.

My guess is that they want to preserve the site as the miners left it. Excavating a shaft has two effects, it opens a closed shaft and it creates a new spoil tip. It may be the case that there is plenty of spoil around, but that does not mean it will be automatically OK to dump more, new spoil, as that changes the site.


http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/publications/HAR_Register_Yorkshire_and_Humber_2009/yorkshire-2009-har-register.pdf/
 

braveduck

Active member
WE are aware of all the issues,and they will be addressed at the appropriate time,make no mistake.
Pessimists please don't bother posting.
Tom your input is very interesting,we need you on the research team.
 

Joe Parsons

New member
This topic hasnt been posted in for almost 2 years. Is the team set up by pitlamp, langcliffe and others still in negotiating phases with relevant people? Big interest here for me, as father in law is farmer at Mile House Farm, who owns the area of land where the shafts at the very beginning of this topic are located. Also a third share holder (not equal shares) in the grazing rights on Conistone moor.

As a brand new caver (only completed one very short trip down the dig in Gill House Pot with UWFRA outdoors club) this whole topic and everything linked to it is what stared my interest in caves. In fact reading this article several months ago was the reason for joining the forum, and for studying every NGR listed to see if it made sense to me from the surface.

So, Whats currrently happening? And to return to the original topic, shafts above Scargill house, who is responsible for the dig that has been going on up there for years? Whilst walking the dog on father in laws land near Fox Scar (SE 995 705) yesterday, I lifted a plastic cover on a dig in the obvious fissure that runs from SE 993 706 down to SE 987 704 and wanted to know a little more.
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
I can't help you with this Joe; I left it with others more involved to pursue for the time being.

Welcome to the world of caving anyway.
 

Joe Parsons

New member
Thank you Pitlamp. ;) I am sure some of the other have noticed the post has jumped back up the listings and hopefully someone can bring me up to date.
 

johnwilcock

New member
I'm glad that this post has reactivated. Do please keep me in the discussion regarding the increasing interest in Mossdale - Black Keld and the "lost" cavern of Grassington Moor/Old Turf Pits.
John
 

Goydenman

Well-known member
I too am glad you have you have reactivated this post Joe. I gave my email contact details as requested and heard nothing more since. Does anyone know how the divers are progressing in Black and White Keld?
 

Pitlamp

Well-known member
WK has gone further; there's some stuff about it in the April CDG Newsletter. I think the issue of poor visibility has put the brakes on BK for the present. (I do know it was looked at by those concerned a couple of weeks ago and the water wasn't clear enough - not sure if any progress has been made since then.)
 
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