Mossdale-Black Keld

[Pie Muncher]

How large/grand are these lost caverns meant to be? I presume the last people to set foot down there were the miners??

Vast and unmeasured in places.  Tales go a man was lowered on a rope down a natural feature the mines intercepted. His light picked up no walls or floor and was hoisted back up. The miners then began tipping spoil down making no impression on filling the void.
This action could also therefore account for little limstone to be seen on the spoil heaps around the shafts.

There will undoutedly be more natural passage to be found when access is re-established. If of no commercial use, (mineralisation, access) natural passage is unlikely to have been mapped, certainly not to the level of accuracy that the bits that made the money were.

 

[Pitlamp]

I agree that somewhere outside Wharfedale is probably best for an initial gathering. It probably makes sense for it to be on a weekend as well, so as many people as possible can be there (not just us folk who live in the Dales).

If it suits people generally, would a rendezvous in the New Inn at Clapham in mid April be any good, at say 7-30 p.m. on a Saturday evening? There is a private side room which holds about 20 people which I can ask about using. (It's within easy reach of the bar.) By all means tell me this is no good but if folk think this would work I'm willing to see if I can make the arrangements. I do think it would be helpful to have a get together, face to face. If we achieve nothing else it'd be great to meet some of the people who post such good stuff on this forum.

One other thing which occurs to me is co-ordinating developments after such a meeting. Would an email list be worth setting up? At the moment we are totally public but I can forsee good reasons for moving away from this public forum for at least some of the communication at some stage.

 

[langcliffe]

Vast and unmeasured in places.  Tales go a man was lowered on a rope down a natural feature the mines intercepted. His light picked up no walls or floor and was hoisted back up. The miners then began tipping spoil down making no impression on filling the void.
This action could also therefore account for little limstone to be seen on the spoil heaps around the shafts.

Where did you get all this from? Any additional references with information such as this should be made available. The cross section we do have, which is not very good, indicate that the miners originally found the cave from a rise, and entered through the floor.

There is a reasonable plan survey of the of both the levels and the cavern, and there wasn't much extracted limestone to actually tip into the Caverns, although I am sure that that the spoil from the rise dug up towards Cavern Vein was left in the caves.

The plan and cross-section we do have indicate a phreatic system about 400 m long, with the main passages being about 3 metres wide, similar to something like Mongo Gill.

I do agree that it is unlikely that the miners found everything there was to find.

 

[Pie Muncher]

Where did you get all this from? Any additional references with information such as this should be made available.

Had tea and a lovely afternoon round Mike Gills house many years back when it may have come to light. Possibly pub talk in the White Bear, Cross Hills with John on the piano. I'll make some enquiries and if there is a reference, of course it will be shared.

 

[braveduck]

The mine that Pie Muncher is referring to is just South of How Gill Nick the road to Mossdale passes it.
The shaft here was about 360ft deep leading to this vast cavern of which I know of no known plans.
So this is quite near the area that Wren opened this thread about.This shaft is full also,topped  up in the late 60s to surface.This infoe is in a ULSA bulletin I do not know the number.
This is much further NW than the Lost Caverns,and more likly to be connected with the Mossdale water route or an abandoned one.

 

[langcliffe]

The mine that Pie Muncher is referring to is just South of How Gill Nick the road to Mossdale passes it.
The shaft here was about 360ft deep leading to this vast cavern of which I know of no known plans.
So this is quite near the area that Wren opened this thread about.This shaft is full also,topped  up in the late 60s to surface.This infoe is in a ULSA bulletin I do not know the number.
This is much further NW than the Lost Caverns,and more likly to be connected with the Mossdale water route or an abandoned one.

That would explain it, Braveduck. They did find a deep natural fissure in the 38 fathom level cross-cut dug from How Gill Shaft, and they did use it as a tip for many years. But that's 800 metres away, so I suspect that Pie Muncher is trying to confuse us... That fissure is thought to be in the same fault as Lunar Pot. It's just below How Gill Nick, which is a major sink.

 

[braveduck]

Don't ask me to dig that shaft,my life expectancy may not stretch to it!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Pie Muncher]

so I suspect that Pie Muncher is trying to confuse us... That fissure is thought to be in the same fault as Lunar Pot. It's just below How Gill Nick, which is a major sink.

No intention to confuse, memory allowed to let one down sometimes? Suffice to say, truth in the tale, and evidence that more natural passage accessed by the miners all be it slightly to the North East and certainly worthy of further consideration.

 

[braveduck]

In doing further research I have come across a reference to
White Keld, is this the rising near Grassington that feeds the fish farm?

 

[dunc]

In doing further research I have come across a reference to
White Keld, is this the rising near Grassington that feeds the fish farm?

It's very close to Black Keld; 97518 70720
The WRPC Journal 2001 carries some information on it.

 

[langcliffe]

is this the rising near Grassington that feeds the fish farm?

That's Brow Well. Industrial pollution from Grassington Moor was reputedly released from the Duke's Watercourse where it crosses the valley above Fossil Pot in New Pasture, and contaminated that spring. One can probably assume that the sinks above Gill House Pot are the main feeders (and possibly Howgill Nick?) with a 240 m depth potential.

 

[Pitlamp]

Isn't that spring also known by another name?

 

[langcliffe]

Isn't that spring also known by another name?

Low Mill Risings.

 

[stevejw]

I agree that somewhere outside Wharfedale is probably best for an initial gathering. It probably makes sense for it to be on a weekend as well, so as many people as possible can be there (not just us folk who live in the Dales).

If it suits people generally, would a rendezvous in the New Inn at Clapham in mid April be any good, at say 7-30 p.m. on a Saturday evening? There is a private side room which holds about 20 people which I can ask about using. (It's within easy reach of the bar.) By all means tell me this is no good but if folk think this would work I'm willing to see if I can make the arrangements. I do think it would be helpful to have a get together, face to face. If we achieve nothing else it'd be great to meet some of the people who post such good stuff on this forum.

One other thing which occurs to me is co-ordinating developments after such a meeting. Would an email list be worth setting up? At the moment we are totally public but I can forsee good reasons for moving away from this public forum for at least some of the communication at some stage.

All that sounds good. The mid April Sat is BCRA in Horton so suggest 7:30pm Sat 24 April 10, New Inn Clapham. Email list also sounds good and we could do this post meeting.

 

[braveduck]

That date is OK by me.

 

[Pitlamp]

I'm happy to organise a gathering that Saturday at 7-30 p.m. (i.e 24th April at the New Inn, Clapham) if it suits other folk? Please can anyone else interested let us know if this is OK and, if so, I'll go and see the manager later this week. I'm pretty sure we can borrow that private room but I'd be happier having a better idea if it suits everyone before going ahead and making arrangements.

 

[langcliffe]

I think that it is owned either by the freeholders of Grassington or by the gateholders of the moor. The Duke of Devonshire tried to sell it about 20 years ago, and Keith Lockyer et alia took him to court to show that he did not actually have ownership.

I was wrong. The Common Land Tribunal actually found that there is no registered owner. This probably makes the task easier.

 

[ChrisJC]

I was wrong. The Common Land Tribunal actually found that there is no registered owner. This probably makes the task easier.

Is there a difference between no registered owner and no registered  owner?
I suspect the latter was the case, under which circumstances the land is almost certainly owned (is it crown land by default?), it could just be hard to find out who by?

Chris.

 

[langcliffe]

Is there a difference between no registered owner and no registered  owner?
I suspect the latter was the case, under which circumstances the land is almost certainly owned (is it crown land by default?), it could just be hard to find out who by?

Good question. However, I suspect that it is effectively under the benevolent stewardship of the YDNP as they seem to have taken responsibility for fencing off the open mine shafts. I will investigate further.

 

[langcliffe]

I will investigate further.

I have investigated further, and this is the informal advice provided by someone in the YDNP who has responsibility for the area. In view of the informal channels used to gain this advice, it should be regarded as guidance only and not as the definitive story, and certainly must not to be quoted in any formal approaches. However, it is an excellent starting point.

"Grassington Moor is a unusual situation in relation to ownership or indeed lack of.

You are correct in respect of Keith Lockyer and ownership of the Moor which prior to the tribunal Bolton Abbey Estate were thought to be the owners.

Post the tribunal the Grassington Moor Management Association was set up in 1986 with the primary objectives being:

(i) to promote the conservation of the natural beauty of the Common and in particular, the conservation of the moorland habitat and the archaeological importance of the common and

(ii) to allow reasonable public access to the lower parts of the common for the purposes of quiet enjoyment.

Membership of the GMMA includes the Graziers, representatives of the owner of the sporting rights, Parish Council and representatives of the YDNPA. With respect of the National Parks role we have a duty under section 9 of the Commons Act which places responsibility for protecting the land from "unlawful interference" upon the local authority, and the County Council. This responsibility has been delegated to the committee.

With regard to the above, any permissions for use of the Moor have to be submitted to the GMMA and for members to make a decision. For example Warner Bros carried out some filming recently and requested permission.

AS you know quite a bit of the lower Moor area is Scheduled Ancient Monument designated in 1998 by English Heritage in addition an area of the Moor to the north west is SSSI which is the cave system under the Moor which may have a bearing on matters. The mineral right owner is the DofD."

Since receiving the above, I have checked the SSSI associated with the Black Keld catchment area, and the closest point to Old Turf Pits is about 700 metres, so there should be no problem there.

This indicates to me that any discussions would need to be conducted with:

1. The GMMA
2. English Heritage (probably through Robert White, YPNP Archaeological Officer)
4. Probably the Chatsworth Estate (where Nick Williams kind offer would come in useful).