The referendum - how will YOU vote?

[ChrisJC]

Well where has Brit exit got us so far.

An economic downturn we are producing less than 50 at 47.7 (so going down by 2.2)

A prime minster who wants to remove human rights, snoop on our e-mails and happy to nuke civilians.

Loss of standing in the eyes of the world, scientific investment drying up.

Doing well arnt we?

Brexit wasn't supposed to be some kind of instant economic nirvana. It's a change of direction which (in my view) we will look back on in 10 years and say was a bloody good thing. By then the EU will be spectacularly imploding, hopefully not taking us down with it.

Chris.

 

[Andy Farrant]

Brexit already has had an impact on the science community.  Most science these days is done through international team efforts working on large scale multidisciplinary projects (think CERN, Greenland ice core projects etc). It often takes several years to put together a research team, and already there have been instances where UK academics have been sidelined due to Brexit fears. And many of the excellent European scientists who I work on a day to day basis with no longer feel that the UK is a welcoming place to do research. And it may also mean UK scientists not being able to work in research labs in Europe.
UK science is up there with the best in the world, but for how much longer is uncertain. Many of the problems we face are international in nature (terrorism, climate change, drugs) which are best solved though international collaboration. Whilst the EU make not be perfect, it is a darn sight better than going it alone. As for 'taking back control', as far as science is concerned, the opposite is happening.

 

[Alex]

Yep only way through these issues is to work together, but we have decided to go F-you. Infact a lot of the world is saying that at the moment. I don't hold much hope for mankind. The whole world is going to shit.

 

[Simon Wilson]

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism."

As true as ever.

 

[royfellows]

"Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism."

As true as ever.

Power to the people Eh, Citizen Simon

 

[Bob Smith]

Seems more like a T junction to me.

 

[ChrisJC]

Brexit already has had an impact on the science community.  Most science these days is done through international team efforts working on large scale multidisciplinary projects (think CERN, Greenland ice core projects etc).

I would like to point out that CERN involves the Swiss. Not currently in the EU as I recall.

So it is possible to have large collaborative science projects without the bureaucratic nonsense that is the EU.

Chris.

 

[droid]

Seem to remember knowing an American post doc at Newcastle University 30 years ago, he was a student of Paul Davies. USA has never been in the EU.

If it's a problem, it's due to the scientists/faculties rather than the EU.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Switzerland has full access EU research cooperation and EU research grants because it is a member of EFTA and a partial member of the EEA.

For the UK to leave the EU and be a member of EFTA and EEA would be madness. The UK would have to retain all the EU rules and all we would have done is relinquish our say in making the rules.

That fruitcake Boris wants to leave EFTA and EEA and says we can still retain access to the single market. That's a bit like Cornwall wanting to leave the EU but retain all their EU grants.

 

[ChrisJC]

There is no fundamental law of physics that says you can't have access to a single market without accepting free movement of people. It is a construct of politicians that makes this the status quo.

The politicians can change this as it is what the people want. Or they can ignore the people, and watch as the sparks we currently see around the edge of Europe grow and grow into full scale conflict. It's their call.

Chris.

 

[Simon Wilson]

It's nothing to do with laws of physics; it's to do with the laws of the EU. Juncker, Merkel and Hollande all say it won't happen. Do you believe them or your friend Boris?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/juncker-uk-must-accept-eu-rules-to-access-single-market-1-4186047

 

[andrewmcleod]

There is no fundamental law of physics that says you can't have access to a single market without accepting free movement of people. It is a construct of politicians that makes this the status quo.

The politicians can change this as it is what the people want. Or they can ignore the people, and watch as the sparks we currently see around the edge of Europe grow and grow into full scale conflict. It's their call.

Chris.

They don't want to lose Britain, but they can probably afford to do so. If you start loosening the requirements for one though (particularly something so utterly fundamental to the entire European project) the whole thing might start to unravel and the next country wants to have its cake and eat it too...

If I was the rest-of-the-EU now I might very well want to make an example of the UK.

 

[royfellows]

If I was the rest-of-the-EU now I might very well want to make an example of the UK.

I agree with this, they need to dissuade others from following us.
But then we may well demonstrate that they are not the only ball park in town.

 

[Disgusted from Cornwall.]

May seems to be doing a lot of talk and the noise sounds good. However, I am a little wary of them kicking the ball into the long grass. I'm very cynical and I think big politics and big business will try and stitch it up to have things their way. Obviously, the longer you drag this all out and keep making the right noises, the less the impact becomes. May has said "We are doing it, we are not fudging, backtracking or anything else", however, I don't see art 50 being put into motion yet. There is some paranoid hysteria on the internet about how when Lisbon comes active in 2017, the whole QMV thing renders the referendum result void. I can't see them pulling that stunt, but they may take things right out to the line. In the meantime, we'll have more people drowning in the med, more allah ackbars and the PIIGS fiasco rearing it's ugly head again. I can't see there'll be anything to leave at this rate.

However, it does seem like this illegitimate organisation has created itself out of nothing and now we have to grovel to it....Sorry, that's totally inaccurate, we have to grovel to the leader of the 4th reich. The real leader of the EU Aka United States of Germany.

My hope is that they are very effectively managing the process and doing the right thing with the timescales and placement of additional supports, however, the cynic in me suggests they are buying time for their own plan B. Remember, the EU doesn't do democracy and ALWAYS gets it's own way. They've ruled out a second referendum, however the more we stretch this towards 2020 GE, the more some sort of fudge seems likely.

It's simple to me, the Brits voted out, that means out and it means out now. No fucking about, no dithering, pull the plug out and then deal with it. Anything else looks like theatre and fudge.

This should have started with the immediate withdrawl of all EU payments, all EU receipts and the withdrawl of all of our MEPS.

Let's cut the crap, their businesses need our clients to buy their BMWs etc. I don't want a Morris Minor myself, but they should stop fucking around and act.

 

[andrewmcleod]

However, it does seem like this illegitimate organisation has created itself out of nothing and now we have to grovel to it....Sorry, that's totally inaccurate, we have to grovel to the leader of the 4th reich. The real leader of the EU Aka United States of Germany.

The bigger countries in the EU have always thrown their weight around - but until the Tories led us into the backwater after 2010-ish and steadily pissed everyone else off with unreasonable demands we were one of those bigger countries with more clout and vetoes than we deserved.

 

[royfellows]

Something no one has mentioned yet but I am wondering if the seeds of Brexit were sown when we rejected the single currency?

I cannot see anyone refuting the assertion that the EU was moving steadily towards a 'United States of Europe' and surely a member state with its own currency would be more than just a fly in the ointment.

Thoughts anyone?

And without the politics please

 

[droid]

Andrew: could you be more specific as to what those 'unreasonable demands' were, please? (Old, failing memory, etc.)

Roy: we also opted out of Schengen.

 

[Disgusted from Cornwall.]

I think the seeds of brexit are merely a stage in the theatre. Looking back over the long game and the whole various examples people cherry pick, from Monnet, to the thing on the wall of the Commission HQ as well as the first paragraph of the Treaty of Rome, it's utterly utterly clear about what the whole game is about.

It seems the only lack of clarity and dishonesty (outside of the EU fraud and corruption) is member states leaders. Witness Call Me Dave and his joke reforms. What a joke! I look at Ireland being made to vote twice in it's lisbon referendum.

I am of the opinion, having read a very shocking book called "The end of work" (Rifkin) that the EU and it's forthcoming copycats are critical in the very necessary decline of democracy in order to facilitate a variety of socialism rather than the path to misery we are presently taking. It is an unholy mess. Read the book.

If you're playing the game from another planet and already have all of your wealth considerations dealt with, the EU is the most sensible idea imaginable. It may have it's teething problems, but anything dealing with the transition from a growth/commerce based economy to a post all of that economy is going to suck some serious arse. The problem is if you live in a rich (relatively) country and are trying to cut your own slice of the cake before the roller shutter doors come down. This is very grinding, hence the surprising backlash IMO.

Sadly, that what needs to be present to manage wealth and quality of life has been hijacked by vested interests, corruption and people pursuing their own pet projects.

I think it's irrelevant what we think. It will be steamrollered through regardless.  I think the age of traditional moderate politics is starting to drag it's keel on the sandbank and it will be interesting which way the boat tips over.

Interesting stuff.

Either way, the fittest will always survive.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Andrew: could you be more specific as to what those 'unreasonable demands' were, please? (Old, failing memory, etc.)

Unreasonable is an opinion rather than something objective so I won't make concrete claims on that, but here are some things the UK negotiated for itself above and beyond the standard deal for new members:

Not being in the Euro
Not being in Schengen
The rebate
The proposed deal negotiated by Cameron

I thought there were more, although I may be wrong.

Edit: There are four countries with opt-outs: the UK and Denmark with 4 each, Ireland with 2 and Poland with 1.
For the UK:
Schengen (with Ireland), the Euro (with Denmark), clarification on the 'Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union' (with Poland, although they seem to have ended up doing it by accident), 'Area of freedom, security and justice' (with Denmark and Ireland, in our case opt-out but we can opt-in per issue).

We also had an opt-out of the Social Chapter of the Maastricht treaty until 1997.

 

[Simon Wilson]

If I was the rest-of-the-EU now I might very well want to make an example of the UK.

I agree with this, they need to dissuade others from following us.

But then we may well demonstrate that they are not the only ball park in town.

Roy, can you be specific please?

By 'ball park' I assume you mean market. By 'in town' if you mean within a short travelling distance then the EU does appear to be the only ball park in town.

I keep hearing people talk in vague terms about 'opening up new markets' or being 'free to trade with whoever we want' or things along those lines. But I haven't heard anybody being specific. What new markets might there be? Who could we trade with more than we do at present?

It seem highly likely that we are about to lose a proportion of our export trade to the EU. Do you think that trade could be replaced by exports to other countries? If so, precisely what export goods and to which countries?